Without jumping to conclusions, Bogut is doing all the right moves. Good on him so far, it is a sacrifice that not many NBA players would be willing to make (Essentially playing for no salary).

As a NZer, it does make me wonder just how limited Sean Mark's loyalty to NZ/Breakers must be.
He has been relunctant to come back and play, even though he has been offered money, and whatsmore he is nowhere near the type of player Bogut is.

I hope this eventuates; would be absolutely awesome.

Several teams Marks has played for have said that you cannot measure what Sean brings to Practice and the Locker Room, he is the guy chest banging his team mates when they hit a big shot and patting them on the back enthusiastically every game even though he will be lucky to get anytime on the court.
I do agree with Macdub's comments that here is a Number1 draft pick bending over backwards to give something back (not the first time Bogut has put his hand up and helped either) to the country that helped him to realise his dream and Sean Marks (I will concede that their situations are much different) is standing back in the shadows from a fans perspective.

Bogut is playing this nicely from a PR point of view.

Saying he wants to help to promote the game is interesting - his management is advising him well.

What we do know is that this is one of the best places in the world to be looked after as an athlete and the schedule here is light compared to anywhere else.

So its a good place for a NBA player to hang around, stay fit, play in a good quality competition without getting your body thrashed (South America) and without huge amounts travel (Europe).

Here are my unanswered questions:

a) Is his insurance subject to salary cap. So if Bendat pays his insurance is that in/out of cap?
b) What is the damage if he agrees to terms, plays 3 games, draws great crowds and then leaves because the lockout ends and crowds tail badly as a result?

There is a scenario here where 3-4 NBA quality players do play here, but leave as soon as the Lockout ends, and the NBL (and non nbl public) is reminded that the league is very second rate because they have left. This is much more of a risk with an NBA starter like Bogut than fringe player like Mills.

HO - sure, there is a risk of those things happening, but do you forego the opportunity to have those guys, especially Bogut, come and play in the NBL when they could be getting huge money in Europe or elsewhere.

Its an endorsement of the league that they have chosen to come here, and in my view fans know the terms on which they make that decision. If they do leave its not a reflection of the NBL as a league.

Two separate points to make to posts

Anon Mills would be very similar to Marks (in terms of salary) and he has come to the NBL to play when he could be in Europe

HO, so does that make all the European teams second rate also when all the NBA players they have signed to contracts leave only a couple of games into the season?

thedoctor, I am not for a second saying forgo the opportunity, it would be terrific to have Bogut playing.

The fans may know, the GP, in the hearts and minds of whom the NBL struggles to find a place, may view it ver differently.

I am looking forward to seeing top NBL guys going at NBA guys, couldn't care if it's only 3 games or 10

I can't see any reason why insurance would be counted within the salary cap. It is not a payment to a player or something for which the player derives any direct benefit. It is merely an overhead of running a basketball team.

I think as long as the NBL publicity machine (ok, the hamster running on the wheel) gets the message out that they are here for short term only, and why, the damage of them going back will be minimal.

If people are led to beleive they are here for a full season, then could be major damage for the NBL.

Who's got the cheese to get the hamster running faster?

i dont think anyone is going to be suprised when they 'realise' the NBL is second rate compared to the NBA, everyone knows this already they just want to see the best players we can here in Australia, i dont see this as a risk because people already know the deal!

Big Sexy. Please don't rewrite what I say. I am normally very deliberate and careful with my posts.

I did not say teams were second rate. I spoke very positively about the NBL if you care to read.

My question is about perception and risk.

The risk (nor a certainty) is

1. Bogut et al generate good crowds.
2. They play a few games the lockout concludes and they leave
3. Crowds tail badly because the "star factor" is gone

The talking point then becomes what happens when they are not here, rather than when they were. The story then becomes that the NBL cannot thrive without its Aussie superstars etc etc.

I am not talking about the FANS here, they are committed, i am talking about the media generally and the GP.

Understand this. From a media point of view, managing Bogut and Mills joining the league is easy. Managing them leaving and teams changing and crowds falling as a result is much harder.

HO loves his NBL, don't worry about that, and rates it even higher than I do!

I guess it could go either way - you get new fans (or lost fans) on board through Bogut and Mills and they could either walk away after the NBA guys leave, or they could like what they see and hang around. I think there would be a bit of both. If Bogut went to Sydney and crowds drop from 10,000 to 4,000 after he leaves that would be a bad story, but if they went from 10,000 to 7,000 post Bogut that would be a success in my book.

I think it is well worth the risk, it will generate new fans and new TV viewers and give the NBL the chance to shine, which it would need to make the most of. If Bogut and Mills have to work hard I think it would earn the NBL respect the GP doesn’t rightly give it now.

If they absolutely dominated I think that’s where damage could be done and your NBA fan boys here in Australia would trumpet their 'NBL is second rate’ line that HO was referring to earlier. After watching Mills and Ubaka last night I don’t think Mills will dominate, but Bogut may, he has had plenty of dominant nights on NBA courts after all. Hopefully we will find out one way or another.

The opposite side of the coin Paul is NBL guys actually competing and scoring on NBA guys and showing that the NBL isn't a joke and that these guys can actually play entertaining Basketball.

I wouldn't be unhappy to see Bogut in Sydney. Would've been nice to see Mills and Bogut with Sydney and Adelaide though - bottom teams from last year and room to grow in their stadia.

Funny to admit, but my first thought when hearing even the remote prospect of Bogut at the 36ers was "I was really looking forward to seeing how Helliwell might go. Bugger."

Would be fantastic to see both Mills and Bogut in the NBL...and possible a guy like Wes Matthews if he backs up his tweets!

I reckon if we drew up a list of pros and cons for why they should or should not play in ther NBL and what impact it may have if they take their "bat and ball" and go back to the NBA when the lockout is over, I would still probably be leaning more to the pro side of the argument.

Bogut in Sydney would be a great result. Would also do his chances of increasing sponsorship revenue no harm being based in that city compared to Adelaide for example ;)

I did mention that Mystro, prob got lost in the length of my post!

I only support one team in the ANBL.
But to be honest, I really couldn't care if anyone of the other teams went over the salary cap to sign a big time player.
At the end of the day its good for the league, and I would love watching some big names play.

Do you reckon the NBL should have upped the salary cap this year to $1.5m + ?

Then the league would have the potential to really target guys like Wes Matthews.

Hey MACDUB, it's the NBL, not the ANBL. Never has been the ANBL. If it WAS the Australian NBL, the Breakers wouldn't be in it, would they? It WAS the NIBL in 1979 but has been the NBL ever since. I know it's a point of difference so as to not confuse NZ followers of their domestic NBL but no such ANBL competition exists mate.

I would like to see Bogut in Melbourne with the Tigers. He and Mills together would be great to see.

Jackie, MACDUB's from NZ and NZers are used to differentiating our competition as the ANBL to avoid confusion with their local league. Easy to forgive.

Isaac, its not easy to forgive anyone from New Zealand.

Boti the other day:

It could actually be $500,000 per six weeks, making it less viable commercially.

Good news for Andrew Bogut hunt

Five NBL clubs are believed to be actively talking with Bogut - led by the Perth Wildcats and Adelaide 36ers.

And their hopes have received a boost with the prospect of reducing the massive insurance premium needed to insure one of basketball's most valuable commodities.

Initial talk of a seven-figure sum to insure a player who earns $13 million a season has reduced to a more modest figure, based on the block of time he would play rather than an open-ended duration.

Insurance premiun falls outside the salary cap...

Thanks LC. One concerning thing in that article though, is what Sengstock says near the end:

"We're not expecting him to get paid $13 million a year, but he will be a 10-point (maximum) player and, in accordance with that, there's a salary that we attribute to that sort of player."

The salary bit is what I'm worried about. It sounds like Sengstock is saying the NBL aren't going to accept a club 'only' paying say $100k in salary to Bogut, which is what I was envisaging with all this talk of Bogut not expecting much other than the payment of his insurance costs.

If the Sixers had to fork out a few hundred thousand on insurance and then another 200+ in salary, I think we can kiss any chance of Bogut coming to SA goodbye. That is just too much when you consider that the Sixers would also essentially have to place Balls on extended injury waivers or something to fit Bogut in under both caps!

The more biz you give an Insurance Co
the better the deal you get.
This would be in the States with a company
that's insured NBA players
via the players agents.
If there's NBA players now requiring covers
on a monthly basis, for about $200,000 a month.
Then it can be done.
Minimum amount to take it on = one (1) month.

Also, as a rough guide 1 NBL player point
equals $20,000 NBL salary.
Roughly as a guide.

I am not sure if the NBL can legally govern how much a player is paid other than a minimum. But youre right, I hope Sengstock's comments just came out wrong - if Bogut wants to play for minimum wage let him play for minimum wage FFS!

If it is Ballinger ; - a months injury waiver is better than rushing back.
He's on $20,000 a month , roughly.
Injury insurance may help with that.
We could do Bogut here for a month
$200,000 insurance and $20,000 salary.
You'd get that back in that month.

I'm confused about who gets the $200,000 a month insurance ... Milwaukee? Is the money returned if bogut doesn't get injured?

Trevor, the insurance company gets the money. Its just like when people pay for health insurance on a monthly basis to ensure their costs are covered if you have to enter hospital.

So I spoke to a mate at the AFL and he gave me this hypothetical about how the salary cap issues with the insurance would work.

His view was that contract insurance up and including the value of the salary cap for the club would be reasonably excluded from cap payments.

Not sure what the cap is but if the club normally paid 60k to cover 1.3 million in contracts then that is reasonable.

However, he reckons that treatment of payments beyond this for a single player would in effect be in lieu of payment to the player. IE, its a genuine cost of actually employing the player to play beyond the rasonable costs and so should be included.

His argument was that it is a condition of the player's contract to be playing for the club, then it is in effect a payment to the player, and therefore should be in cap. Ie, the club is not insuring his contract with them, its insuring his contract with Milwaulkee. It's a little like making mortgage payments on his behalf - it would be in cap.

I don't care greatly, other than I think about this stuff, and I think the NBL need to disclose how they would treat this.

Andrew Bogut adds fuel to fire he could play in NBL

Taking to Twitter, Bogut has launched a campaign asking fans where he should play if the NBA lockout is not lifted by October 1, which is his declared date for considering his options.

Tagged #bringBoguesback, the campaign has drawn massive support from NBL fans wanting the 213cm centre in their colours, but Adelaide and Sydney would be logical choices for Melbourne-born Bogut to stay relatively close to family.

There'd be 10 point players (imports) on closer to $100k than $200k. Larry is just talking about the "playing for minimum" thing.

As for the insurance, last I heard was something like $100k/game. If it can't come down from that, I can't see any club making that work without some serious sponsor support.

e.g., say the Sixers can up a crowd by 4k/g at $20ea ($20 tix doesn't factor in kids tix), even that wouldn't cover the insurance alone. That's not extra income, that's just to try and break even. Clubs would absolutely need to rely on two things:

- crowds staying strong after Bogut and his insurance departed
- an increase in sponsorship, even though he might not even play or play for that long

Only other club (I think) with potential to get a reasonable upgrade on crowds is Sydney. They could also get some decent sponsor mileage. Surely anyone else would need a sponsor miracle?

I say don't worry about him to be honest. We are not going to be able to afford him and if we did pay that kind of money out I really don't see the consortium regaining it which effectively could put them in a very bad position financially. If there was ever a concern that signing him would put us in financial uncertainty then don't do it! That is a ridiculous amount of money to be paying for insurance and something I don't see us recouping. Unless he was guaranteed for a whole season, why would a sponsor get on board? We are averaging around 4k people a game, you add Bogut and we will only get an extra 3500. Will that cover his wage???

It would take roughly 8-9 games on ticket sales alone assuming they all sold out, but there are lots of other possible income streams Bogut would add to.

I imagine the Sixers might find it a lot easier to sign a major sponsor though with Bogut on board. If that were the case, that combined with gate, merchandise and corporate sales could possibly cover the price in little more than a month.

That is assuming sell outs and a major sponsor happened, which are both not unrealistic. Of course, the risk is that you could be left with a $200K hole which would be devastating, but you would hope the club are sounding out sponsors now to know where they stand and whether a Bogut deal would get them over the line.

If the insurance is per-game and as hefty as I mentioned, how could they get a return after 8-9 games? How would sponsors feel about coming on board if Bogut returned to the NBA after 2-3 games? Or never even played for the team?

I think the only thing I'd be confident about is 7k or so crowds.

I am going on the $500K figure, and stating a best case scenario if a major sponsor came on board, which is possible given the exposure the team would get. The company wouldnt feel anything about Bogut leaving, they would understand that possibility and make a decision to sign or not on what they thought the commercial value was.

That's the best case scenario, the worst case is Bogut only plays a game or two and the lockout ends, no sponsor comes on board and you are left with a big financial hole.

How much could they make from selling Bogut NBL jerseys??

A packet I'd be thinking. I'd buy one.

Whatever club he plays for will make a kiling in merchandise.

First thing a team would do once they have signed him is order 2000 + singlets

With great risk comes great reward....

With great risk comes insolvency.

No possible way of making more money than you spend with Bogut.

The wash up of all this

$500,000 per month to play.

NBL teams get in 5 games per month on average.

So Bogut needs to geenrate $100,000 per game for this to happen.

Not all of those games are home games so lets say you have 3 of the 5 games at home.

you now need to generate sales of $166,000 per game.

at $30 per ticket that is an extra 5700 people. Only one team can pull that off.

Lets say that you sign Bogut and he brings in a one off $200,000 in sponsorship. Considering some AFL teams sponsors pay $500,000 this is a chance.

You would now need 3333 extra people at $30 each to cover the cost of Bogut for THIS MONTH ONLY. If Bogut played the whole season it gets even worse.

This has not even factored in what he might expect in a wage either.

In short Bogut is a long shot to sign anywhere. If he is to sign anywhere only Sydney have the seating space to have a remote shot at pulling it off financially.

Of course there is merchandise and secondary income.
Those income streams would be insignificant to what it needs financially to pull this deal off.

I would love to see it happen. Realistically the only way it will happen is if Bogut pays the cover himself or if a serious white night ala Frank Lowy appears to bankroll the deal.

Just imagining a funny situation where a club with Bogut plays him only for home games, but charges the opposition to bring him on the road as a drawcard. Leaves them tossing up the damage he'd do on-court versus the extra sales off-court. (Half-baked hypothetical so don't bother picking for the obvious flaws.)

I like it Isaac!

Isaac that is not that far fetched as Kewell was asking for that exact thing The Kewell deal:

- Melbourne Victory have reportedly offered Kewell a profit share deal in which the Socceroo would receive 80% of the first million dollars in additional profit above an agreed upon average of membership, gate takings and Kewell related merchandise. He would then receive 90% of any other profits beyond that.

It's also understood Kewell has agreed terms with Sydney FC though the specifics of that deal remain unknown.

- FFA, keen to utilise the phenomenally large profile that only Kewell wields, have offered to help fund any possible deal by using Kewell as a part of their marketing and promotions.

The peak body originally offered the 32-year-old an up front fee of $250,000 which the player’s agent rejected, offering a 70/30 split of all additional profits above an agreed average of away gate takings. This deal would potentially also have an image rights component.

Have heard something that suggests Sydney is it.

I heard the same on the grapevine today...

Bogut on Twitter today:

"Season launch announcements have nothing to do with me. Rumours that I have signed are false false false! Still at least a week away I think"