get a life "bring it on" you don't know what you're talking about.

so raytri who was defending Loughton, going under ball screens and not carrying a hand.

2nd time this year Loughton has had 20 plus on Ballinger

So many times tonight he was completely lost on D. He was literally look around trying to find where his man when on ball screens.

People that say Ballinger needs to go have no clue at all! Yes lets get rid of our best player what a great idea!! we would look like an awesome team then!!

You need to put him with decent players as well as a coach that actually knows how to coach!

So the coach needs to tell a so called star player to carry a hand to a shooter does he. Rubbish. Ballinger is a liabilty on d and sooner fans get used to it the better.

Bring it, Loughton only had 2 points in the 3rd (from foul shots) (6 minutes) when DJ was on. So it was Ballingers fault that DJ wasn't on in the last quarter was it?

Townsville are second on the ladder now because they have the best Center in the NBL. The same center Marty Clarke decided not to sign. Townsville finished 3rd last season and could still possibly finish 3rd. So I don't know what your point is.

What! no Hill needs to go, Holmes needs to go, Clarke needs to go, Ng needs to go, Jared Kimber needs to go threads?????

Ballinger is suspect on D - Accepted, Ballinger is on big money - Accepted, Ballinger is one of the best Australian players in the competition - just maybe, Ballinger is the best player on a very weak squad - acceptable enough, Ballinger needs to be surrounded by better players - clearly!!!!.

There is no point singlehandedly pointing out one player. The whole team is on the nose (again!!!) as are the coaches.

Player sackings at season end - Accepted, reduction in existing player salaries - Accepted, new imports and players in 2011/2012 - Accepted, new enthusiasum - Accepted. Clarke has one more year to deliver what he preaches otherwise he'll be looking for a new place of employment around this time next year.

Didn't bother reading the thread.

Assumed it was still school holidays.

Retards abound.

KingJames, I don't know if that disproves "bring it"s point. When Johnson went off, we were up 15. Ballinger came on. Over the next 6-7 minutes while DJ is on the bench (having played the full third quarter), Loughton scored 10 and Crosswhite 2. When DJ came back in, the 15 point lead was down to 2.

From there, it got sloppy. The only Adelaide score for the last 3:17 of the game was DJ with a two-point bucket! He was +7 for the game. While he was on the bench, the team were -12. Will work out the rest of the players later.

Ok who else would we have had as Captain, no Ballinger isnt the best option for captain in the league, but hell who in this team would be better?? Holmes? He spend to much time on the bench.

Isaac you point out Ballinger lost points compared to Johnson tonight, once again I could go so I ask..were the 2 ever played together? If so what were the numbers when DJ was centre with Balls at PF?

err..could NOT go

1 qtr that went wrong 2nyt! U guys were killing them!!! U need to support ure team guys!!! U beat us in the 1st game ove the yr, They played sik D that nyt!!! They shoulve continued to play like that every game!!! Sum times the players just dnt wana play. Brian Gorgian? Any wayz as a cats supporter, I really wish u guys come bak!!! At the power house!!! Belive n the team needs its members so they can get to where u guys b long!!!

Ballinger doesn't need to go. BUT...he isn't the type of player to build a team around.

Skud, the passages of play between their subs are: Ballinger on solo, +1. Then with Johnson on with him, +6. Ballinger out, DJ solo, +7. Then DJ out for Ballinger, 0. DJ joins him, they're -1. Ballinger out, DJ solo +2 for that passage. Then Ballinger replaces him and goes -13. Then DJ back in for final stretch and they are -7 together. So, summed:

Ballinger only: -12
Ballinger and Johnson: -2
Johnson only: +9


One of them was always on court at any given time.

Ballinger -14 for the game, Johnson +7.

King-James, Townsville have the best centre in the league because he plays in Townsville. If he played in Adelaide under Marty Clarke, I have no doubt he would be as good as useless. Its the coach that needs to go, my patience has run so thin that I don't want to see him back for another year let alone two. Yes its true, Ballinger has not got a single defensive bone in his body but on a lot less money than he is getting, he would be good value for what he brings at the offensive end. I wouldn't get rid of him unless he is not happy to stay for less money, but some of his money does have to be used on a decent centre.

get rid of the coach and bring sme old school people back into the fold. guys with some heart

Ballinger won't be @36ers next season.

Come on everybody - why the panic - this is all part of the great 3 year plan! The players are trying to execute a no win system. Clarke will abuse the fans now because they weren't happy at the end of the game.

The problem is that Balls is expected to play as a centre when his natural position is forward. The sixers need a proper centre.

Come on Schench come home

EC, and others - what does Marty do that makes him such a bad coach in your eyes? Why is onus not on the players?

I dont bu the out of position line. Ballinger was killed by loughton, Clarke, wilkinson and on and on I could go. Those guys arent centres either. There is no one in this league that Ballinger can guard. I don't care that he gets his 15 a game when he is giving up 20+ he is a liabilty.

Defence isn't an individual thing. It takes a team to play defence, hence their being no "i" in defence (just thought of that!).

Ballinger's fine. He's a player with strengths and weaknesses. Patience folks. The team is the issue. A minor tweak here or there and they could really go places.

Moses that is fine when you have 5/5 playing D. When you have 4/5 playing D then the whole system breaks down.

As Isaac's numbers show the 36ers are better when Ballinger is on the bench.

Bizzy IMO the avergae fan is frustrated. We have had 4 imports this season all who have come in highly regarded with good form in previous leagues and have not been able to perform in Marty's system. Surely the coaching staff have to take responsibility to recognise players skill set don't match system they are running?

Another thing I have observed is imports getting worse the longer they are here. Surely this is a coaching problem as they need to give players the confidence to perform

Winder - Great pre season then went missing
De Vries - great start to the season then cut down
Shannon - looked th goods first few games - downhill since
Howard - looked the goods first game then went missing

Seems to be a common theme the longer they are here the more confidence they lose and the worse thry play.

The rotations are just plain confusing, the love affair with having so many guards is crazy.

Moses, you are correct. I think we used to have this problem when Farley was in the team. As soon as defence had to switch and he lost his man, everything else started to unravel.

Jake, won't disagree on Winder dropping after the pre-season. DeVries had an injury.

Shannon, you might be right, but I think his drop in numbers probably coincides with the return of Carter from injury.

On Howard, I think his first game was a bit inflated - he got convenient FTs and some lucky plays. I remember thinking people were probably a little over-excited based on that. I don't remember him continuing that form longer than a game? He shot 3/19 in the next three games and I don't think you can put that all on a coach.

Ballinger is a good player and he is not included as an import cause he is naturalised aussie. He is just out of position! He is a Power Forward not a Centre.

i agree isaac, howard may not have always been used to his full advantage, but once your on court with the ball in your hands its ABSOLUTELY your responsibility what you do with it i.e , shooting 3/19 from the field is your own fault. professional players should be able to hit those shots at a higher rate.

some people here are nuts.

there are some relevant points, yes he does get exposed by bigs ( when myself- 6 foot, and my mate-6'1 where forced to play the tall positions we couldnt win, if one didnt get exposed by his taller opponent than the other got burnt trying to help cover), more a team structure issue already discussed.

commonly noted he is an offensive weapon, yes he isnt the best defender but not everyone is. lots of those around. is it worth it? well yeah, we need an offensive weapon, when we have 2 other reliable scorers and 4 other guys who can hold there own on defense it wont matter.

but the biggest issue here is

ballinger >>>>>>>>>>>daylight>>>>>> next best player.

clarke already said we are 2 boomers from being a top team. look at the other teams compared to us. if you arranged players into categories of elite, star, very good, good, average, role/ bench, liability. ild think most decent teams have some combination involving 3-4 players rated from elite to very good. then a mix of good to average and role players.

we would have one star (balls) where do the next fit in?? i would rate next 10 players good? there should be 2 players from star to very good in between.

dj- good, maybe between average to good at worst. hope to progress in coming years to very good

holmes- last 2 seasons would be classed as average to role player

carter- good, or between average to good, very solid without being spectacular, the good category is where he belongs

bruce- ild say average but some would argue good. burns the ball alot or makes stuff happen.

daly- average atm with flashes of very good, could grow into the good to very good.

dowdell- role player

ng- injured, would be in the good category

hill- average to good.

creek- average ( can go long periods without doing much) to good. will progress fast to very good at the very least.

im not counting imports.

imo holmes and bruce should be redundant next year. rely on one import sign 2 players in the elite to very good category. with improvement from creek and if dj can then even one star + import ( one being a big centre) we would improve massively.

I am sorry guys but its not Balls that has to go, he is a great player personally its Bruce that needs to go. For someone with so called experience, every time he steps foot out on the court he looks lost to me, and if he is so good & has experience why did no other club pick him up ?

I hope not

The coach lost the game for us in the 4th quarter, he had the wrong personnel on the floor, and didn't make changes until the lead and the game was gone.
Balls is a power forward and works best in tandem with a center, when he and DJ were there together on the floor good things happened.
Coaches tend to have players they like ie "the favoured sons" and they depend on them to bring the game home. However the sign of a good coach is to monitor the score line, and if "the favoured sons" are not doing the job i.e. when the score drops rapidly, SUB THEM.
In particular how many turnovers did Carter cause in the last quarter, I lost count.

without needing to look at the stats the team scored 7 points.

Anon - yeah, fair point. I apologize. I was still extremely frustrated at the Sixer's performance when posting.

I still don't agree that Ballinger needs to go though.

Bizzy, I can't think of any player in the team that has improved his game this season after an additional 23 games under their belts plus all the additonal training. Please don't give me Daly because although its true, as a development player it has made extremely little difference to the team in general and the quality of the team in this league.

I listen to Clarke after every game when he speaks about the game just played. He has never come out and said that this or that went wrong tonight because I made a mistake in a certain play. He always speaks of the capabilities of the players to make the right executions. In other words its always the players fault and not his own. If the players are making mistakes because they are not listening to him, why not?

smyth nor ninnis hung it on themselves either ?????

ball will be here next year and beyond, had a chat with him today at wayville

Balls reminds me a lot of Matthew Richardson. People will say he is a great player but like Richo at Richmond, while he was there, they had no success whatsoever. That is just they way things work out at times.
No doubt Balls is the best scorer we have, but the problem is that when his shooting is off, he is a liability in D. His last quarter was so embarrassing and yes he was not alone.
Forget this talk about getting behind one's team, there won't be anyone left at the Dome next year if perfornmances continue like Friday night.
Our coach seems he would better off coaching some under 12 kids.

EC, what did Clarke say on friday night or did he not turn up to answer questions?

Squid, I think the problem we have with Ballinger is that so much is expected of him. The lack of any respectable imports this year, the injury toll and the fact that the rest of the players are not star players has put a lot on his shoulders. We are expecting that as the captain and the best scorer in the team, he will win games off his own back. Unfortunately it is a team sport and it takes a whole team to win it.

King-James, its the same old dribble after every game. Its all in the mind he says. The players aren't playing their roles, they have to think about what they are doing. He likened the last quarter of Friday's game as not thinking about what you are doing, like crossing straight across a busy Grange Road without looking. You will get run over. Correct me if I'm wrong but the first 3 quarters they were playing a fast paced game and that was successful for them. In the 4th quarter they slowed down the pace considerably and that left them vulnerable as the opposition had time to prepare their attack. He confuses me because I thought the idea of a guard heavy team was to play a fast paced game and yet he is telling them to slow down and think about what they are doing. It gets really frustrating watching Shannon how long he holds onto the ball and them they are forced to make botched up attempts at scoring because the clock has run down. It now seems to me that this is the instructions that he gives him. I am not a professional ooach but there is too much confusion with what he is doing with the team, and it shows in the way they play.

the 36ers since ballinger has been here-
14-16
15-15
10-18
8-15

and thats been with maher, shenscher, julius at times. diff coaches, diff owners. playing at pf or now center. bad on the road. same problem with defence each time. other teams talk about it and people in the know know its happening. fans just see the stats and hate the coach so they dont realise whats going on.

It is laughable that people actually believe that Ballinger is the main source of all the teams problems! The last thing the club are going to do is let him go and pay him out! Get a grip! Look at what the club is still paying out and look at how little our fan base is going to be now! Carter sure has a "fan" on here! Or perhaps a "girlfriend!". "Bring it" you are are ranting fool!

Balls isn't the problem. The supporting cast is the problem. I don't mean that they aren't capable players or aren't doing their job, but Ballinger lacks two key things:

A) Plays out of Position.
B) Lacks a 2nd potent scorer to draw attention from him.

With all due respect to the W/L record that has been here since he started; blaming one man for that is plain ignorant. During that same time he's also scored more 30+ppg games than I can count and at least 3-4 games with a 40+ outing.

Still think 2008 was one of our better seasons with Bruce/Balls/Luke. Keep in mind had Carter and Herbert been available that year, we would have been a completely different outfit.

All round better defensive team w/ more scoring potential.

Don't blame the guy who shows passion for playing the game on the court and fire when we're doing well; look at the whole situation and analyse it.

Right on EC, couldn't have said it better myself...

EC - maybe that same "dribble" as you called it, is actually the truth. You won't find a coaching team that prepares their team better, provide training etc.

The onus is on the players to also want to learn the plays and buy into the system.

As it stands IMO Balls isn't.

I can also guarantee you that Shannon isn't supposed to hang onto the ball like he does.

Amen to that EC and Big Marty!

So the best team is the team that lost as many as it won. That team had 2 NBA players Ballinger and Maher yet still was not positive in the win column
Ballinger is not the problem yet he is the only link to all of these loosing records. I dont care that Ballinger shows passion when we are winning it is what he does when we are loosing that counts. Ranting fool i maybe but the facts and stats back up my point of view. Big Marty only game i can find of Ballinger is one 40+ game in December 07 when he went 20/34.Been a long time since he had 30+

Bring it, yep. That's the last time we had a decent lineup that allowed Balls to score.

As for the W/L record, it's the best one we've had the whole time, so yes I would relate the lineup to that.

Consider too that Hodge joined up halfway that season. If he had been there since season launch, we would have had a better record.

Keep in mind to that 2007/08 we only lost out on the final game of the season. Cairns had to lose their last game for us to make the finals yet they won.

Otherwise, yes your points are as valid as the next man; however Balls joining the club doesn't mean he's brought on the "voodoo curse" upon us.

and what was Ballingers w/l record when playing for the Hawks? I am pretty sure it was a winning record every season as well as making it to the grand finals.

Bring It, it is a different game now with 8 less minutes as a result barely any player will have a 30+ game. Penney has only gotten one, Ervin 3, Redhage 1, Williams and Khazzouh 0. I know Trigger has one also.

Ballinger has shot at 55% from the field and been our only shinning light IMO.

Yep, I have posted about that before. He had defenders and leaders all around him. Mee, Kelly, Saville, Campbell - these are top-tier defensive players. To get the best out of Ballinger while he's here (not personal stats, talking about team record), we should be trying to put the same kind of pieces around him. So, not Farley, not sure about Schenscher, etc.

I thought Burston would've been more successful and I think we should've kept him too.

Isaac, you might find that having Gilchrist and Groves (aka, the ballhogs) cost Burston a fair chunk of time.

He may have scored better if the ball was dished out. We know he's got decent hands and is a fairly good passer. It might be been a good tandom for the Sixers.

Guess it's sometimes a case of wrong combinations at the wrong time.

I'm not fussed with Burston's individual statistics. I was looking at his general impact on the game (aggregate +/-) and the team's win-loss record. His +/- was on par with Holmes' this year and the win-loss record is no better.

Interesting that last years guards had issue holding onto the ball waiting for bigs to set up and this year Eddie is accused of the same thing as was Winder.
Different guards, different coaches same issue though.

For me the issue offensively under Clarke and Ninnis has been the entry into the offence - far too predictable and breaks down if the other team is in the passing lane.

Balls is an 'excellent' mid-range shooter in a spot-up mould, and a 'good' low post player. His range has been severely tested by the extended 3-point line this year, which has taken away one of his major offensive weapons (31% down from a career 39%).

Around the court, Balls plays as a spot up shooter on set plays or drive and dish passes created for him. Contrast Redhage, who plays a similar game, but who has the mobility to put the ball on the floor to create room for himself or drive to the hoop.

All in all, Ballinger is a good offensive player if you have the pieces around him and do not rely on him to carry the bulk of the scoring load.

But for a 'star', Ballinger unfortunately has a poor basketball IQ. He is a poor passer, and the worst player on the team to have inbounding the ball (he was 2 from 2 in turnovers on Friday when he was inbounding).

His well publicised defensive shortcomings are in my opinion more of an issue with Balls not reading the defensive play, particularly on switching defences. His post defence is not too bad although his on ball defence is atrocious. It has been suggested on here before that the reason he is played as a centre is to get him away from defending quicker PFs, where he is totally lost. I don't know given that I am not a part of the coaching staff, but this makes sense to me.

It would not surprise me if, as 'bring it' infers, a lot of our stagnant offence can also be put down to Ballinger. Again it is hard to say without being in the inner sanctum, but how much of that is to do with Balls himself?

Yes he is our best player, but I am not sure that the call of 'daylight' to the next player is fair. I am not calling for Balls' head, but we need to call a spade a spade.

Skud, I wrangled my plusminus calculator to (manually) handle player combinations. Here's the season aggregate for the Ballinger-Johnson situations you asked about:

Ballinger and Johnson on together: -27
Ballinger without Johnson: -63
Johnson on without Ballinger: +13
Neither: -14 (though not 100% sure of this figure)

And the starting frontcourt duo:

Ballinger and Holmes: -42
Ballinger without Holmes: -48
Holmes without Ballinger: -15
Neither of them: +16

Winder and DeVries on together: -31
DeVries and Shannon on together: -13
Howard and Shannon on together: -14

Top five combos excluding the three imports no longer with the team:

1. Daniel Johnson,Darren Ng,Jeff Dowdell,Mitchell Creek,Rhys Carter (20)
2. Adam Ballinger,Brad Hill,Darren Ng,Eddie Shannon,Jacob Holmes (9)
3. Aaron Bruce,Daniel Johnson,Jeff Dowdell,Mitchell Creek,Rhys Carter (8)
4. Aaron Bruce,Daniel Johnson,Jacob Holmes,Mitchell Creek,Tom Daly (8)
5. Adam Ballinger,Brad Hill,Daniel Johnson,Eddie Shannon,Mitchell Creek (8)
6. Aaron Bruce,Adam Ballinger,Eddie Shannon,Jacob Holmes,Mitchell Creek (7)
7. Darren Ng,Jacob Holmes,Jeff Dowdell,Rhys Carter,Troy De Vries (7)
8. Adam Ballinger,Daniel Johnson,Darren Ng,Rhys Carter,Troy De Vries (7)
9. Aaron Bruce,Brad Hill,Daniel Johnson,Mitchell Creek,Tom Daly (6)
10. Aaron Bruce,Brad Hill,Daniel Johnson,Eddie Shannon,Jeff Dowdell (5)

If you want me to try any other combos, yell out.

The Ballinger/Johnson combo together is interesting. With this combo, DJ would be 5 and AB #4 - everyone says that's his natural position. One would expect this is when AB shines.

When DJ is on without AB, then his #4 is either Dodwell or Holmes, and the 3 is either Hill or Creek.

Isaac, would you have a +/- on the following combo? DJ, Holmes, Hill, Ng, Carter? (and the time spent on court)

The other combo would be: AB, Holmes, Creek, De Vries, Winder

DJ, Holmes, Hill, Ng, Carter has only been used (from what I can tell) briefly once. -2 result. Only four scoring shots total, a bucket for us and a bucket and two free throws against us.

Assuming AB is Ballinger and not Bruce, your second combo has also been virtually unused but is +2. Only two scoring instances in that time.

Whereas the original starting line-up is: Adam Ballinger,Brad Hill,Craig Winder,Jacob Holmes,Troy De Vries (+11)

(No significance in order of players - just alphabetical by first name to get them grouping properly in the queries.)

The starters after the import changes: Adam Ballinger,Brad Hill,Eddie Shannon,Jacob Holmes,Ron Howard (+24).

Then that line-up, but without Hill is, ranked by combos used (no allowance for time on court, keep in mind):

1. Adam Ballinger,Eddie Shannon,Jacob Holmes,Rhys Carter,Ron Howard (-1)
2. Adam Ballinger,Darren Ng,Eddie Shannon,Jacob Holmes,Ron Howard (-1)
3. Aaron Bruce,Adam Ballinger,Eddie Shannon,Jacob Holmes,Ron Howard (-1)
4. Adam Ballinger,Eddie Shannon,Jacob Holmes,Mitchell Creek,Ron Howard (-23)

I think that -23 is heavily influenced by a horrible run in New Zealand?

The top two five-man combos are completely separate:

1. Adam Ballinger,Brad Hill,Eddie Shannon,Jacob Holmes,Ron Howard (24)
2. Daniel Johnson,Darren Ng,Jeff Dowdell,Mitchell Creek,Rhys Carter (20)
3. Adam Ballinger,Craig Winder,Darren Ng,Jeff Dowdell,Rhys Carter (12)
4. Adam Ballinger,Brad Hill,Craig Winder,Jacob Holmes,Troy De Vries (11)
5. Adam Ballinger,Brad Hill,Darren Ng,Eddie Shannon,Jacob Holmes (9)
6. Aaron Bruce,Daniel Johnson,Jeff Dowdell,Mitchell Creek,Rhys Carter (8)
7. Aaron Bruce,Daniel Johnson,Jacob Holmes,Mitchell Creek,Tom Daly (8)
8. Adam Ballinger,Craig Winder,Daniel Johnson,Jacob Holmes,Rhys Carter (8)
9. Adam Ballinger,Brad Hill,Daniel Johnson,Eddie Shannon,Mitchell Creek (8)
10. Aaron Bruce,Adam Ballinger,Eddie Shannon,Jacob Holmes,Mitchell Creek (7)

Yes, AB is Balls.

Out of interest and if its not too much trouble, what are our points average per quarter and our opponents average per quarter against us?