It is very simple - Pay the refs a fair wage, and you will have more people wanting to ref. That makes it easier to get good refs for all games. Social players need good refs as much as District players need good refs.

Is this thread based on just one example or are there others? Do you know if Paul is regularly refereeing social or might he have been just filling in the once? Maybe he just wanted a couple of games rather than to commit to more?

What would be considered "Fair and reasonable" to pay a ref?

An average wage seems to loosely be $20 an hour. Maybe $20 a game?

People you have to realise that if you pay the referee's more then the cost of games and spectators will go up to pay for the increase.

If the referee's are there fo the money then thy are doing it for the wrong reason.

If the $$$$ mean that much to them, then go and do social and stop wasting the referee's coaches time.

are the referees subject to taxation on that payment?

It's well known that basketball referees get significantly less then referees of other codes such as AFL and Soccer.

I personally believe there are four reasons why referees quit. Each referee is different just like every player or coach is different and plays/coaches for different reasons and walks away for different reasons too.

In my opinion referees quit due to:

1) Pay
2) Abuse
3) Lack of support/Mismanagnement by administrators
4) Loss of interest

No referees in SA do it as a full time job. Not even the NBL guys.

I believe for most it would be a combination of all or a number of the above and not just one issue which makes someone quit.

3 of the above issues can be controlled to a degree, Point 3 should never be an issue but right now is probably the biggest of all of them.

Welbourn is one of the handful of ABL referees I know who have either quit or chosen to take a break from refereeing. There are a number who also don't referee over Summer due to NBL/WNBL commitments or s lsck of interest outside of the ABL season.

I'll put it bluntly, cut out the crap, you will get the refs back. I know a number of ABA referees and future ABA referees who have given it up or at least taking a long break simply due to all of the crap.

Players need to learn to get on with the game, coaches need to learn to coach their team, parents need to learn how to cheer on their team instead of abuse the ref but refs also need to learn the game isn't about them.

If everyone can just play the game, things would be so much better then what they are now.

Paul is doing Monday night social because he quit doing District games because of lack of support from his peers,Monday night have two quality refs on social nights,the rest are crap and dont know the rules,one day social nights will have green shirters and kids refereeing,older referees will bow out due to the abuse from teams,warnings have been given out about abuse,but some how warnings have been ignored.

Pretty sure Referee's are dealing with the code of conduct, but the ratio of players, spectators and coaches combined outways the Referee's. Referee's are getting sick of the abuse, it doesnt matter how many times you chuck them out or report them theres still more out there to deal with.

This is why I am currently refereeing social at wayville because you deal with the legends of the game (i.e Ali Green,Jason Dix and the Paul Bauers of the Basketball World that come out to play and NOT Bitch).

TREVOR BAKER!!!
say no more

Agree refs are probably underpaid and deserve more, but keep in mind most coaches don't get paid at all.

Agree that refs shouldn’t have to put up with abuse, however it does work both ways. There are a number of fantastic refs and a number of very average refs throughout basketball circles. As a coach I should have the right to question a call as it happens, and as a ref they should be able to explain why they made the call. It is only fair that they are accountable for their calls. To try to say that no one can talk back to a ref including a player on court in my opinion is wrong. Providing it is not done in an attacking manner, refs should explain their call if questioned. A player would then learn more about what they are doing wrong and how the refs are going to call the game.

Paul is a great ref and definitely missed at ABA level

Tree will be Trees.
It is good to hear that Al doesn't bitch at the refs while playing- he must use all his comments for the refs while coaching.
Having said that, it is great to see guys like him giving something back to the sport.

A simple " from where I was standing and in the split second I had to make the call, that is the decision that I thought was right" should suffice for most calls unless the referee is making blatent interpretation errors.

In hindsight, with a chance to think about a decision, it is quite possible to think that perhaps a call shouldnt have been made or alternatively made the other way, ie block/charge, out of bounds off hands, etc.

These days, I referee point sparring at Martial Arts Tournaments at a National level, and it is no different. It is still a subjective decision to call something, but at least there is a review option as it is a majority decision by the three refs. However, there are still people 10 - 15 metres away in the crowd who seem to have a better view of the action than the refs about 1.5 - 2 metres away.

You cannot please all the people all the time and there is no way a video review can be held after every whistle which some people seem to expect.

anon i agree with what you say about referees answering questions, however many coaches will do it on every single play, on every single game and why would you want to keep hearing that for four hours every friday night? players and coaches need to learn to get on with the game, if they want to ask a question, wait til a break, approach the ref and ask in a proper manner, yeah there are some refs that wont give you the respect back, but the good ones should. Questioning every call over and over is just plain irritating and ruining the game.

It is much like the new NBA rue, the rule although everyone hated it has actually worked, besides some stupid calls everyone generally just gets on with the game, and it is great to see, it is what the game needs.

Outsider,

This happens because referees are taught to be inconsistent.

When referees stop 'manageing games', stop trying to maintain the 'flow' of the game. And simply be consistent with calls, alot of the abuse will simply stop.

I know it is not the refs fault as it is what they are being taught. But until the higher ups undderstand that they are damaging the level of refereeing by giving a ref the easy out of, a) advantage/disadvantage, b) flow of game and c) management of game, there will be continuous abuse because the game is not being called in a fair and consistant manner.

are the refs the only ones who get paid. Do they practice. Are they dropped divisions like players are if they arent up to it? I think we know the answers to all these questions

I would not reff even if the paid me $50 a game,
You always get little jonnys mum/dad telling you the rules and mouthing off
You can never keep both teams happy ( its always the reffs fault we lost)
You always get the coaches telling you what to call (Sturt coaches are good at thie every 1/4 time and 1/2 time breaks you will see them talking to the reffs)
Maybe if some of these so called experts got of thier butts and reffed themselves there would be no problems

Missed out..............How do ref's practice? Other than reffing games?

By doing running work.

By going over rules interpritations to improve consistancy.

By watching video of their/other peoples games and assessing it.

BU they dont need to pass the fitness tests and a written exam isn't useful in a game scenario.

Plus you dont learn or improve by doing more games. Especially when yo are not being coached at all for most if not all of those games.

20 years ago, players learnt by playing. Now they do more training, video analysis and breakdowns of skills. In the same 20 years referee development hasn't changed.

bring back the penguin

Visious circle, without the education, referees wont improve, will do a poor job and will continue to get abuse.

NO diggity people have been stating one of the problems is lack of pay. So now you want them to do all this:

By doing running work.

By going over rules interpritations to improve consistancy.

By watching video of their/other peoples games and assessing it.


Probably for the same pay. Referees pass a fitness test yearly.
They due a rules exam yearly.
The ability to get video of games other than NBL on oneHD or WNBL from ABC is just about minimal from ABA leagues etc.

Maybe if more resources were allocated this might have a snow flakes hope in hell.

Not Diggity - Plus you dont learn or improve by doing more games. Especially when yo are not being coached at all for most if not all of those games.

The the answer is BASA allocating more resources to referee coaching so that there are more ref coaches assessing.

A referee can watch video, do rules analysis and run until they are blue in the face but until they get into a game situation under game pressure under fatigue they are not going to know how they will react! It's not like a player who can shoot 300 shots a day or run and offence. A ref needs to ref to practice, experience game situations and learn from their mistakes.

How players and referees learn and train are totally different.

Agree totally Sebastian, more resources should be put into referee education. But BSA puts $0 into coach education other than level 1 and 2 coaching courses that realistically aren't beneficial. But the coaches find their own resources and use their community or peers to improve. Not to mention yearly clinics from international coaches. Getting game tape would be very easy. I am sure that coaches would actually edit tape and show errors if they were asked.

How do referees learn from their mistakes when they aren't coached? How do they know that they have even made a mistake?

The easy response if for the referee community to want to be better. The better players are those who train outisde if teams sesions by themselves. If BSA ran referee coaching sessions every Sunday night from 5-7pm and then just promoted those referees who turned up and did the work, they would be half way there.

PS its BSA now. Not like it was 20 years ago, when refing a game made you better.

No Diggity "Getting game tape would be very easy. I am sure that coaches would actually edit tape and show errors if they were asked"

In the last ABA season, I asked for two DVDs of game tape... it took 3 months to get 1 of the DVDs and it was an edited version because of the "situation" that occured at the end of the game, and another month for another DVD. This was asked through the ABA where I believe it is league rules to have every game taped and accessible to the league upon request (or something similar)

I asked for a SEABL DVD and I got it within the week from completing the game.

WNBL is required to provide a DVD as soon as possible after the game is completed, and thus far 1 out of 3 games have complied with this requirement.

So it isn't as easy for referees to get video footage let alone referees that don't know many people within the ABA/SEABL/WNBL to ask for it (either the league or coaches).

The best way I found to get tape for referees at the Junior level, is to do it themselves, or ask a referee coach/friend to tape it so you have it on hand.


I agree with the previous posts about referees learn by refereeing. Obviously we do not want referees to have any massive errors or game making decisions that impact win/loss but it is going to happen, and that is unfortunately the best way to learn due to the game scenerio, pressure, logistics behind the situation in the game. I consider the majority of the population would learn best from their errors in any job/sport/hobby/school work etc.

FYI - referees are required to pass fitness tests before refereeing ABA or they are dropped panels. In extreme circumstances the "unfit" referees are used but placed on a lower panel until they prove their fitness. In National League, if the fitness test is failed, that referee does not get a game until he/she passes the mid-year test.
The same applies with the rules exams that are done at the same time.

So please don't critisize the effort some of these young and up and coming officials are putting into their game, when they are obviously trying to improve themselves. I cannot comment too much on the lower scale of the sport, but as we increase in numbers, hopefully similar expectations will filter down the ranks!

Oh and PS - Welbourn CHOSE to retire/quit refereeing state league basketball, that is why he is on Show Court 2 at Pasadena Monday nights running around in shorts looking after the Domestic Ballers.

Graeme, SEABL last year had a change of direction with a new referee commissioner and a new approach to feedback via DVD. It from my limited knowledge league rules that clubs had to have game DVD to the office by wednesday so that the commissioner could review and referees could request copies.

Not every league is like that. As you start to go down the levels the harder it is to get copies. But visual feedback is the best vehicle for coaching. BUt unfortunately most clubs only worry about themselves rather than supplying DVD for referee education. Thus even harder at junior panel and almost impossible at domestic level.

The bottom line across the country is that until more resources are applied to referee and referee coach education the level of overall improvement will be minimal.

Correct Sebastian... I got the SEABL DVD through a club contact, not the League.

As stated previous, for the leagues below the top level, you are nearly best to get the game tape by recording it by your own means (friend/referee coach/mum or dad).

However in the higher leagues, a coach normally just needs to be asked if a DVD could be supplied and generally it has been available, but as to when the DVD change hands is a different kettle of fish unfortunately.