Was he the only player on the floor for the Sixers in the 4th quarter.
Where was Ballinger, De Vries?

Was coming in to say the same thing. His defense is non existent and his shot selection is woeful.

Overall, he is a good player but not a star. As an import, in the NBL he needs to be a star.

6 of 20 from the field and 0 from 5 from the arc terrible make the move now Marty. Yes I know he plays good D but Ervin smoked him tonight.
As we as the ng he's a fan favourite but hey if he's not knocking it down he's useless

I agree

Replace him with a big.

I like his energy, but we're not gonna make the 4 with this line up.

Ng is stuggling too...

Adelaide used to be a fortress, the team should be ashamed after that display

I'm not pathetic mate just look at devries he had 11 assist and took t
I think 6 fg attempts not enough same goes for balls start feeding him the ball he needs to be taking 10 to 15 shots a game. As for winder yeah he gives energy but he can't shoot to save himself I'll go as far to Julius money hungry hodge has a better J

Livin in whyalla i havent seen a live game..but it seems dj should be played more allowing balls to play 4 spot, and winder seems to be strugglin but it is early and clarke is the coach so we will wait and see but losing by 14 to a depleted hawks on their 2nd game of a road trip and at the dome ringls alarm bells.

Winder missed at least 5 jump shots that should've been bread and butter

Say*

winder time to winda outa town - who does the recruiting it cant b e clarke as we seem to be getting dud after dud - no shot no can play - defensive skills are a given

Winder had some very good chances and could make them, whether they were jump shots or drives. Dumping him after just a couple of games is a bit tough I reckon. Give him another couple of games at least.

GTFO

Who X??

Winder or the premo's???

Let's not get so far into a seaon again when it is too late to make a change. Check out the difference between Ervin and Winder today, it was amazing. Surely Winder would be embarrassed, knowing he has been absolutely outclassed.
Tine also sadly to ditch Ng. His preformance today was disgraceful. And to think he started the last quarter, what the hell were they thinking?

you guys are ridiculous

Give the coaches and players some time together. Think losing Herbert has hurt more than people thought...

What's a premo TR?

GTFO @ WaSixer and the other geezers who I think may also be WaSixer.

Stupid comment.

Winder's preseason shows he has the game to dominate for us, yeh he has had a couple of shockers but I think the TEAM as a whole has played badly.

The premature wristsnappers (I did use another word, but decided to tame it down) that want to cut Winder this early into the season..


Today wasn't flash from the whole team, and Winder had a shocker, but I think he has the talent to persist with considering the season is only 3 games into the season.

By bringing in a new import, you'd only screw up what chemistry the guys have developed, and you may as well chuck away the pre-season.

The player the concerned me more than Winder was Ng.

What exactly does he bring??? He's not the shooter (or he's not getting the looks) he was a few seasons ago, he's not a lockdown defender, and I'm struggling to see what role with the addition of Carter that Ng has in this team.

I'd rather see a development player in his slot, or at least another big. I thought that there was conflict last season between Hill and Ng having similar roles in the squad, and the addition of Carter has pushed Ng down the ladder further.

Get Phil Smyth back in there to run the point

I think we all saw Winder has the skills and class based on his pre season form so we need to back him in.

Ervin killed him tonight but I hope he can turn it around.

I would like to see DJ get more minutes and Balls returned to the 4 spot. We will never with Holmes as the starting PF. Needs to come off the pine IMO. Forman got the better of him.

Agree with the above re Ng. He is a flat out shooter but seems to be lacking confidence. If he is not hitting his shot he is not adding much.

I'll put it to you one way guys would your boss at work expect you to perform on the salary given to you. Winder had an open 3 tonight with 5 seconds to line it up and still missed man you have to hit them shots. I'm not a player basher and believe winder is a good player but is he the man to dominate for us AKA Willie Farley style back in the day. I believe the coaching staff will give it one more game then cya late.

Well ill throw in my two cents. I was at the game and suffice to say Winder looked keen from the onset but to me he let his shooting affect the rest of his game as to me he gave up halfway through the 2nd quarter his D sucked. Regularly he left his man to try for a steal or intercept that never eventuated and probably 75% of the time left an open man for a shot that went down. His work ethic was poor and his passion dissolved the more shots he missed. I'm pretty sure the good basketball players know when they are having a poor shooting night and decide to turn up the screws on D or forget about their poor shooting and concentrate on the rest of the game. Unfortunately this wasn't what Winder was doing and it should on the court.
DJ should be put into the starting lineup at centre and Balls at the 4, we looked a much better team when he this was in effect. Carter proved he has offense but his D is supreme. I don't think I have ever seen a better defender in a sixers uniform in a long time.
Yes Balls should of got the ball more and DeVries should of put more shots up. He definitely has a better handle on the ball than I first thought as he had his defender stopped in their tracks a couple of times with his crossovers and stepbacks.

This should of been a win. Hawks came in with 9 on roster only played 7 from memory, played last night in a nail biter and then came here and trounced us when we had a fresh squad of 12 and ten played minutes.
It was a heart-wrenching loss but at the same time its still a new squad, only third game.
Lets get behind them at the next game and help them back to even win/loss record.

U want to get rid of him after 3 games? He wasn't our worst player tonight.

Wa Sixer will be eating his words at the season mid point!

Give him time.

He was money in the preseason. He needs time to adjust to foul trouble which ultimately hurts his shot selection as he tries to do something and forces things as soon as he is back on the court

Lets not waste another season with " Oh don't be so hard on them, give them time to gell!"

Winder got smashed today,then tried to be a hero and wasted chances with bullshit ball.
They should read him the riot act this week, and if he dosn't show the necessary improvement (esp. attitude) then he's got to go.

On the positive side, Carter was great, also liked Johnson & Dowdell.

E mate I hope to god I am

Don't blame the players - Clarke can't coach. He is a dud. No personality at all. Team has no pesonality either. One thing to be in your face but it is gonna be a long long long season. Bring back Phil pls.

I wasn't at all impressed tonight with Winder, but it's a bit harsh to cut him this early on. Give him another couple of weeks to see what he can do. Not at all impressed with his jumpshot tonight - he was open around the free throw line so many times and floated it long. 3 point shot was also terrible. He tried to take over in the last quarter and failed dismally by dfriving into traffic and turning it over. Doesn't seem to run the offence too well either. Ballinger and De Vries need to take more shots. Agree with others re Ng's ineffectiveness.

Winder does have a huge playing similarity to Al green, and he could probably have much the same effect upon a game, provided he had a team that included a point guard/defensive wizard like Ray Wood and/or a SG with a Daryl Pearce like 3, but this team has neither.
So he struggles to guard a point who's quicker than he is and also have energy than defence - and when he beats his player , the other defensive players have already faded off the non-3-point-shooting assignments.
He actually needs the others to step up.

thats my view

Easy to blame the shooter when there not hitting..Bottom line is the hawks hit EVERYTHING the threw up. We didnt..Also The is a HUGE hole in the Center position...This must be addressed first and formost..

Early in the game the 36ers ran an isolation play where they went four high and sent Winder to the rim resulting in an easy 2 over the much shorter Ervin. Pretty simple play and should work well as it would be difficult to get big man help because Balls or even Holmes will punish you from the elbows if their man digs. Never went to it again. Strange logic. That is where Winder has an advantage over some other PG's and I would be using it against Cooper next week as much as posible. A few on here are suggesting some sort of Al Green comparison and while that is at this stage way off the mark, the ability to take smaller less physical defenders to the low block was one of Al's trademerks that Winder could also gave success with. I think he will be OK but Marty needs to play a system that best uses his skillset.

based on my opinion of players performance so far in 3 games! The starting line-up should be:

DJ
Balls
Hill/Holmes
DeVries
Carter

If Winder doesn't start performing in the next couple games i think they need to look at getting rid of him for either a Center or a point guard that is athletic but at the same time has a shot!

Great comment Snakepit. Right on the money. I don't think we should cut Winder yet and the only reason for that is that he has the athleticism to be very damaging close to the basket - either by posting up smaller PG's as you suggest, or by collapsing the D so we can get our main offensive weapons (Balls and DeVries) open on the perimeter.

If he doesn't show that he can play the drive and kick-out game successfully in the next few weeks, then I would say the Sixers should cut him. But I think he can make the adjustment. Lets hope he can turn it around soon.

You people are just... wow...

yes way too early sack import but really like to know what this guy going to bring us week in week out as a import a few highlights like that reject ,
To me looks exactly like Gilchrist in just doing his thing.
Hope wrong but got totally bad vibes about this guy.
If has any pride at all will surely respond from bath he got from Ervin

Ervin is a class act. Glad to have had the opportunity to watch him play. Great skills in so many areas, a very nice pick up for the Hawks and definately early leader for MVP

Getting a bit excited about Ervin there guys. This was his first remotely efficient game and he still had 4 turnovers. He shot at 38% over his first 3 games and was averaging 4.7 turnovers a game. Definitely not MVP of the year so far IMO. He will be if he keeps playing like he did today so I'm glad I got on him at $21 :D

Ervin is one of the standout import guards in the competition so he'll make his opposite look average more often than not. The issue IMO was Winder not penetrating often enough. He can hit the three, but just wasn't close tonight.

As for Ng, I think the comment about Carter picking up a bit of that role could have some relevance. Ng seemed a bit on the outer.

Back on topic, no, I don't think it's "time to rid of winder".

Interesting posts.

Was pondering starting one questioning if Winder can actually hit a open jump shot? But no need to with this thread running hot.

First play of the night he posted low and scored it was a nice play and one that they should look to use more, I'm pressuming it was something they talked about in getting the ball to Winder early and get his 'offensive' confidence up.

My issue is can he hit a open jumper? If he can and does in training pre season etc then he is worth keeping. If he can't hit a jumper than he is not much better than Brad Hill (who actually shot the ball well y'day).

Can he post up?
If so then he could be of use.
Sounds like his perimeter game is sus, but if he can get to the line some other way he could be useful.
Sixers have plenty of shooters so he should not be forcing them up.

X, Ervin is averaging 23.8 ppg. Sure he may turn it over a bit, but the Hawks have won 3 out of 4 games so he is doing all the right things to get the W.
Definently the leading MVP candidate at this stage.

wow i wake up this morning to check hoops. The only thing thats a miss is a crucifix! Its a bit early to be sending winder home. Its his first game without early foul trouble and yeh its not his best game. Cant just sack players because of a disappointing loss. Yes it sucked yesterday i think marty has some work to do but no need to start demanding heads

The suggestions to sack Winder are harsh and un-warranted. It's still too early for this, he deserves at least another couple of games.

Foul trouble is one issue. Shot selection is pretty poor at times and this was shown yesterday.

Give him some more time.

Ervin is an awesome import and guard in this competition. It was great to see him play live yesterday after getting a taste on the tv in recent times.

Of the 40 jumpers after training, going around the 3point arc, - he got most of 'em in.

Yes Champ 33 too early to sack especially knowing that Sixers wont anyway after keeping Groves for season.
But surely have to be concerned from what saw last night .
No penetration lots of time passed of at keyway run deep waving arms around telling people where to go.
Absoloutely no defense Ervin and Demos blew past him and 2 nd half floated everywhere to avoid PG drive.
Absoloutely stupid fouls that Cambell 3 point shot was ridicolous .
Shooting how many open shots did he miss and those 3 point shots were shockers including a air ball.
Simply not going to get ourselves off bottom area unless get value from imports especially with our young current squad.

Definately not time to boot him yet. Damn you guys are quick on the button!

However, there are concerns on his shot selection, and switching on defense. I can think of 5 or 6 times in the second half where he got caught on a switch and ended up on the big man, or just lost in the keyway. Marty, show the boy some tape please..

Winder was woeful, i have seen better shot selection in under 14 div 2. And so much for him being a great defender, the reason he gets into foul trouble is once he is beaten he doesnt move his feet and gets called for reaching in, again under 14's

NG is pathetic, if he cant shoot he does nothing else.

Holmes not much better, at least he can get rebounds but not much use getting rebounds and missing the put back. Forman destroyed him.

Brad Hill another player only getting a game due to family connections at the 6ers.

Sack Winder, get a import centre, move carter to starting point guard and use Tom Daly as his back up

Unload Hill, Holmes, and NG at the end of the season and start looking at players from other clubs i.e. not Sturt!!

Gone you are an idiot

Brad Hill
14 minutes
75% from the field
66% from the 3
1 foul
0 turnovers
10 points

Yes he certainly has to go.

Where do you mushrooms come out from?

I think we should wait a few more games and then make a decision. He could turn it around. Def needs to take it to the basket more, attack the pick and roll way more, get the ball to Balls more.

And can we please play Daniel Johnson more - he looks great out there.

obviously the coach didnt rate him either "you should be gone" you made my point, he only got 14 minutes and he started!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Using the coach as the counter argument confirms you should be gone, explain that argument with Winder at 32 minutes, and you want him sacked as well

Idiot!

Winder is an import, he is paid top dollar to perform, he isn't so time to replace him with a centre, and the coach won't play him fo 14 minutes when they are paying him top dollar to perform.

Muppet

oh to be a sixers import, not.

Brad Hill has been playing pretty well last couple of games and yet you still hate on him.

Some of the posts in this thread are downright pitiful. Stop with the kneejerk reactions, its been 3 games for crying out loud!

No deal yes it is a total knee jerk reaction but for those like me know wont be changed but shocked by his poor showing in many areas maybe you can give us where Winder is going to give us a boost in weeks to come .

Wow, I would hate to have some of you guys as a boss.



"3 days and you still haven't learnt the business??

Don't come Monday!"

How many people really rate Hill for him to be over rated? People see potential but I don't hear too many going over the top about him.

Mystro, you should keep a list. I think since the start of the off-season pretty much every single player has copped it.

OK bretts. I'll give it a shot.

In the pre-season, Winder was hitting the three. Not at 60% or anything, but enough to warrant a few attempts and to help spread the defense. I don't think he'll shoot 0/5 every game. I also doubt he'll get screwed in the paint by the refs like that or miss decent looks that close. He might not have Ervin's speed, but he's stronger when penetrating. He's just not getting the calls and wasn't finishing.

Yesterday he went 12/6/6 in a game "bad enough" to bring about this thread. If just two of those shots fell and maybe instead of one three, he found an open man instead, it's a 16/6/7 line. That's a bit of "what if", but it's a game where those small things add up.

I wouldn't rush to throw out weeks/months of pre-season and bring in someone new because a guy was a few dodgy threes and a bad shooting night off a decent statline.

End of the day, this team even at 45-45 did not look like they had a killer blow in them. We in the past have looked in that killer blow from guys like Maher, Farley and Cat. We all thought Winder was going to be that guy yesterday, but he wasnt, and hasnt proven to be YET. From what i saw of him in the preseason, he has the ability to take over a game, so id give him 3 more games. Sadly, being the money man, means you have to deliver more than 12/6/6 as your minimum. And for what the 6ers require due to their lack of height and genuine depth (we have no savvy veteran!), we cant afford to have an import who demands a lot of the ball and doesnt produce. IF he'd hit 2 more shots, isnt good enough, when Brad Hill is starting for your team. Import has to make up that slack.

Thanks Isaac guess that is right get some points then we will be happy even if we have other concerns but some of those attempts were shockers and open shots .
Other concerns were absoloute no relevence of D and last half just floated around on nobody .
As good as Ervin was Carter showed that tight defence could restrict him and had 1 steal on.
But as our PG marshall was all over the shop in same manner that had from Gilchrist last year .
Yes obvious going to have to given a while but effort was of some concern when go into season all fired up about new team

Exactly what isaac said, I actually think if his shot was dropping he wouldn't have been forcing so many shots. I wouldnt have said his shot selection was too bad up until the last game.

He is our best dribble penetration player, and one of maybe 3 we have who can make there own shot. His defence was good up until the last game.

I honestly think he just had a garbage game, which was the case for most of the team, but at least he looked active and aggressive. If he is putting up the same performances in a months time then maybe we can look at dumping him but until then its going to cause as much harm as good to replace him this early.

Attitude, effort and teamwork are paramount before skill, ability and output.
If you guys are happy he has the right attitude and puts out, then maybe you can forgive the mediocre showing. But I hope for your sake he is not another Gilchrist, because Sixers are going to up against it in most games.

"X, Ervin is averaging 23.8 ppg. Sure he may turn it over a bit, but the Hawks have won 3 out of 4 games so he is doing all the right things to get the W.
Definently the leading MVP candidate at this stage."

Julian Khazzouh has been the best player of the first 3 rounds by a country mile. I don't care if Sydney are 1-2 after losing by a point on Saturday. Ervin's season still doesn't compare.

You could make arguments for Martin, Forman, Harvey, Redhage, Abercrombie, Loughton and DeVries too. It's far too early for MVP talk but I think a lot of you are overrating Ervin's year after yesterday's game and rating him purely on his scoring output while ignoring his many deficiencies.


'Gone', you are a clown. That is all.

The guy had an off night - it happens.

My only constructive criticism would be I'd like to see a bit more Darnell Mee in him, in that if the shot clearly isn't happening for him, pick up the defence and look to set everyone else up as much as possible.

Balls hasn't been getting open looks from outside. Winder could easily drive and then dish back if the fouls aren't getting called. We're not short of perimeter shooters (most teams aren't these days).

Except that 12/6/6 might've been a good game for Groves.

Would have been his best game of the year. Winder only had 1 turnover as well by the way.

Cortez Groves - slightly better = ave 10ppg @ 44%
Had 18/5/7 and the like.

Groves - 24% from 3point line .
It doesn't necessarily follow I'd replace Winder.

Well personally I think Mitch Creek has done absolutely nothing this season. It's not good enough. Gone.

lol @ x. I completely agree. Creek is useless cant even get any minutes. If we are like this coming from the wooden spoon then imagine the perth fans when they were 0 and 2 lol. Im surprised the team still exists after those two performances!

What about 11 points per game? If that's not enuf then 9 of the 15 imports in the league should be very nervous about their employment status

Let's not forget Mitch also has 0 turnovers.

yeh 0 turnovers to me means he isnt trying hard enough. He needs to be cut

FWIW, about 50% or more of those thinking that Winder should be cut have IPs that trace outside of Adelaide/SA. Obviously there are 36ers fans and pundits interstate, but likely a few rogues around too. I doubt any local fan is thinking this is what we need from an import or think this is the best Winder can do, but it does seem that the majority are not so rash as to pull the pin now.

You don't pull the pin on a Side Winder Isaac, you pull the trigger and it flys off and hopefully hits your opponent smack in the face! :-)

Hopefully, that'll be the Kings this week!

well that seems to have shut them up Isaac.

I don't think it's about shutting people up, I'd just rather see people be a little reasonable about this sort of thing - we're at Game 3. I think the extremes are "worst than U12s", "sack him immediately" and "he's the best, hope he keeps playing like this". Reasonable is "hopefully he can improve", "potential is there", "a few more games to show if he can adjust and then reconsider", etc.

i do agree, and that would happen in an ideal world, and there are a few of us that see it this way but there will always be who are straight to the negative. Personally i think he was just having an off game, his first two he was met with early foul trouble, and this time he got some decent minutes, and he probably felt the expectations on him. i think this game coming up against sydney we are going see a much more insync team. i dont think they want to get stuck in a negative rut and will do everything they can to get out.

I think people are still thinking of, and comparing to, stat lines we were used to for in 48min games too.

His stat line in 48mins, might have been closer to 13/8/9ish, near on a triple double.

shooting % aside, i would take a player who posts near a (48min) triple double in his worst game for the year, anyday.

should just couple more of his shots have dropped, like isaac said, then in 48, you might've been looking at 20/8/9. wow, then we'd be praising his performance.

Performance pressure on imports here is pretty extreme. Results in a lot of decision changing / forced shots IMO. Let him settle in and we'll see.

That was Winder on 5aa interview tonite.
Shot poorly Ervin was good.
Clarke's message after the game - we really move the ball around quickly in offense - it's defence we've gotta concentrate on.

He played in Syria - but Cornesy couldn't find much detail at all on that Country.

Its not a case of just 1 bad game. His average over the 3 games so far is 10 points, 2.7 assists, 1 Offensive Rebound, 3 Defensive Rebounds. Not great for an import/starter/point guard. This is the position that we had the luxury of filling with Brett Maher for so many years. We also had the luxury of searching the world for a suitable replacement.