Im goin sixers by 8, winder playing more than 20 minutes.

Sixers by 9, I think the Winder / Ervin match up will be a game in itself.
Winder has struggled with the style of game and refs in the NBL so far, I think we are going to see him lift from this point on.
Balls 21 points, Winder 20

sixers by 4

What about sixers by 5. Crowd 5500. Troy DeVries to top score , say 25.

That was filched from the first game and there lies half the appeal - to guess the number correctly or here's Camel with his pants down.

Hawks by 4!

Sav the X factor...

The keys for the Hawks are the scoring of Ervin and to a lesser extent Sav. Ervin has taken a lot of shots in each game but has converted at a low percentage. Think(hope) he is due for a breakout and if he does he will go for 30+. Sav needs to take more shots. He always fills up the other lines on the stat sheet, but this season so far, his scoring has been down, even though he is shooting at a decent clip.
Hawks by 3.

maher has got to be the worst commentator so far. If i hear another call about luck being a factor in a teams outcome, im gunna mute it.

Yes - and Ervin has definitely won the point guard contest.

Probably say he's been the difference between the teams. Much more effective at controlling the game and creating for himself and others. He has finished well tonight, as well.

Sixers look a certainty to retain the wooden spoon

maybe the betting agencies will start respecting the hawks haha

Disappointing game. Hawks shorthanded, but Earvin took over when game was on the line.
De Vries had an awesome 3 periods but not sighted in 4th.
Johnson showed he can score OK.
Did Winder try to do it all in the 4th?

Well played Wollongong. Adelaide with some defensive improvement needed. Giving up 96 points was disappointing. I would have liked to have seen the ball go through de Vries' hands more (at all?) in offence during the last quarter. The offence seemed a little disorganised for much of the last quarter.

But the game was lost at the other end, where Ervin was able to do as he liked. I hadn't seen Winder play but was not overly impressed by this performance. He didn't seem to be able to create a lot for other players and seemed to struggle against Ervin defensively. Not sure whether I've read it right and would be interested in others' views.

9 shots for ballinger is offensive. especially seeing as even carfino told us to watch out for him on the offensive end

Hawks are a good solid team. They try and keep it close and make the key plays down the stretch. They were on the backend of Perth road trip so they will be pumped they got the W.
Obviously they have got the stud in Earvin, and others fit in around him. Oscar having a hell of a season, Campbell, Davidson, Sav doing their bit.
De Vries was Sixers best for 3/4 but not required or ignored in 4th. Need some money plays with game on line. Looked like Winder went solo, or is that unfair?

Freakin horrible.

Not Marty Clarke's best effort by any means. The Hawks didn't play all that well, we just insisted on leaving their shooters wide open all day and they shot out of their skins.

I had no problem with Winder taking it upon himself to drag us back in the 4th quarter. Someone had to. But his finishing at the rim was just shocking. Defensively he needs to stop switching with a big man every single time he runs into a pick. Half the time Ervin got inside it was because he had a big man on him while Winder went off to chase Davidson. The other thread's a disgrace. He hasn't proven himself yet but it's far from chopping time.

DeVries' playmaking was excellent but he went missing and didn't seem to have the confidence to create his own shot that we saw in the first game.

Balls was playing on a SG/SF all night with Gruber out, for him to only get 9 shots is ridiculous. Luckily JD and DJ made the most of their time.

As for Ninja, we need him to break out of this slump immediately. He's not getting the opportunities he got last year but even when he does find the ball he's not performing.

I take back everything positive I said about the refs in that thread earlier this week. That was deplorable and it brings them back doen to last year's standard. Ben McDonald was the worst offender. They might not have cost us the game but they certainly ruined the damn game. I couldn't believe how many times they fell for that flopper Ervin's antics while completely disregarding the same thing at the other end. Winder didn't shoot a free-throw, he deserved about 8.

Just a terrible game and an extremely costly loss. Sort it out Marty.

We need a centre on the court. DJ played well but sat down for WAY to long forcing Balls to play the big man. We have seen over the last 2 seasons how this affects his overall performance.
Seriously Marty PLAY A FRIGGIN CENTRE!

Was also nice to see Holmes bang in some shots for a change.

Is Winders shooting usually that bad???? Some are saying he had poor shot selection but he was wide open for most of them, they just sucked lol. I dont think its worth getting rid of him for, as I said in the other thread his pre-season shows he has the stuff.

Well done to Wollongong who shot amazingly for the night

A little respect for the Hawks is LONG overdue!!

We are not that bad, got beaten by last seasons runner up. They are proving that result was not a fluke.

League is tough, a few poor minutes will cost you any game. Once we find some consistency we will be fine.

Last season's runners-up minus their backup point guard and starting power forward. The only facet of Wollongong's game that was any good was their outside shooting, we were just pathetic.

What the hell was Marty Clarke doing putting the worst possible line up on to start the 4th?!!?!?! Any other intelligent coach would actually start his best players in the fourth as its vital to get a GOOD start. That decision was about as intelligent as his decision not to get Schenscher this season! Then he continues his great decision making by taking Ballinger out with 3 minutes to go. He put him back a minute later but at that stage it was all or nothing so he shouldn't have been taken out!

The defense was the worst you would see in the NBL! You know its a horrible defensive effort when Oscar is dominating inside. We really need to work on our Man to man as our zone defense is horrible.

I don't mind if Winder shoots it but ONLY if its within the flow of the offense. Instead he brings it down and just takes the first shot making the rest of the team irrelevant and the other team happy they don't actually have to waste any energy playing defense. Having said that De Vries needs to step up and shoot the amount of shots Winder had.

It was a very poor effort and they could have at least made the margin respectable but their lack of effort continued there. A nice way of saying thank you to the fans that came.....

Respect the Hawks for sure, undermanned and they still dismantled the reigning wooden spooners

Agreed, we were pathetic! Hawks played the night before so should have been tired and have barely ANY depth at all, so with those two factors they should have been disadvantaged but no they kicked our butt.

KingJames, it wasn't Clarke's decision to let Schenscher go. Coach doesn't choose the team.

Crowd only 4500. DeVries only 9pts but 11 assists.
I think Dowdell was top scorer in 12mins... - well, second top scorer.

I think our best 5 at the moment is
Carter
Winder
De Vries
Dowdell
DJ

Its might be a little short, but Ballinger is too slow for our current defensive system or the way we are playing it anyway

It is hard to imagine that it is the same nine guys who played the level of defence that they did against Perth a fortnight ago.

I am going to try to remain positive for the most part. I can perhaps understand the way Winder came out after a couple of games of hardly playing due to foul trouble, but this shoot-first bullshit reminded me of Gilchrist, and that is not good enough. He has been a let down, given HOW GOOD he was in the preseason games. I hope he can do better.

De Vries is a great second import, but I don't know if he can step up and dominate the way that say Ervin did today. He needs more than 6 shots though. His passing was excellent.

Ballinger has to give more, plain and simple.

I thought Holmes was ok, Hill too. Dowdell has been the really positive surprise packet. Johnson needs to be starting, if for no other reason than it moves Ballinger to the four where he plays his best basketball. I think we are lucky that we have Rhys Carter on our roster, given the way Winder has played. I really don't know what purpose Darren Ng is serving at the moment. If he isn't hitting shots he's useless, it is as simple as that. I fail to see that Sam Harris would have been of less use tonight.

Clarke, well, that lineup that he started the final quarter with was a colossal miscalculation.

I said I would try to be positive, so here it is: I thought the Hawks were great, played as a team, and Ervin is a star.

If the coach doesnt choose the team who does?

I think games like this are going to happen sometimes when you've got a playing group which hasnt played that much together. I thought they could have been blown away in the first quarter when the Hawks were nailing everything but they rebounded back with a very strong second. I think the potential is there but the chemistry is gonna take some time to develop.

Unfair to put the loss on Winder, there were a lot of players underperforming.

I thought Foreman had a great game - 18 points and 8 boards (more points and rebounds than any 36er) I wish we signed him instead of one of our many guards / swingman type players we have on our current roster that we must be over paying in comparison with other clubs. He has good size for the PF spot, can block shots and is a threat on offensive end and has range.

I was also puzzled by the rotations tonight. Just can't see why we let go of Burston and signed DJ when we only want to play him limited minutes. We have all seen that Balls plays his best bball at the 4 spot and preformances to date just reinforce this. Someone needs to let Marty know.

Creek is a good pick up and will help but again is another 3 man to split minutes with.

It is way too early to look at cutting Winder. The team is just unbalanced IMO(similar to the Tigers)

Sadly, i think people are right with Ng, id be happy with a rotation of the imports and Carter in the guard spots, and Ng is the one not doing aswell as Carter and Hill.

He played around 11 mins today, personally id give the bulk of them to Johnson and get him playing 20-25 mins, i think he does quite well, especially scoring wise when he is on, and got 5 rebounds today, id expect if we gave him 20-25 mins he would average around 15 pts 6 rebounds which is pretty good and he is quick up and down the floor which fits the sixers well, plus he is a future star and possibly one of the better aussies to build around in a few years, not many 21-22 year olds doing better, and even less 7' footers at that age doing aswell, so would like to see him get more minutes. This also allows Ballinger to play pf mostly which will help him IMO, Holmes is capable of playing atleast 10mins at SF and can still back up Ballinger at pf and get his 20-25 mins.

My starting 5 would be Winder, DeVries, Holmes, Ballinger, Johnson, with Carter backing up the guards (Winder can slide to SG), Dowdell backing up the bigs (with Holmes playing PF at times) and Hill and Creek (when he is healthy and playing) sharing the remaing SF mins depending on form. Looks like a fairly solid and balanced 8-9 man rotation to me.

Dowdell has shown so far to be a good recruit, it was a decision bagged by many when it happened, couldnt ask for much more from a back up big guy.

I noticed Winder was bagged on the other thread, personally id give him atleast another month before making any real judgement, he has shown promise, didnt foul out or get too many early fouls this week, so is adjusting to that, and i think he is capable of making quite a few more of those shots he was taking. For us to be a play off team i think him and DeVries need to be averaging around 15-20 points per game, i think both are capable so am happy to be patient, Perth were patient with Lisch last season and he turned out very good so hopefully Winder will do similar as he gains experience in the NBL style of play.

It was DeVries that shot that 3 point shot with Holmes still in the backcourt.

For what it is worth, Moscow was played at the 4 minute mark of the last quarter, or was it the 5 minute mark? The first and last quarter were just Forgettable (except for possibly the Forman family).

KingJames - I don't think you should always start your best players at the start of the fourth. Sometimes it pays to give them a quick spell at the start so they can finish the game (seems to work for Phil Jackson).

Biggest problem I saw today was the lack of talk between the players, which led to slow rotations etc, the other was really putting a body on someone on the rebounds.

Dammit, my last post disappeared into the ether, so here goes again:

- Sixers, what happened to the aggression and energy you showed against Perth?
- Should have tried to wear down the Hawks, given they just got beat up by the masters of the cheap shot in Perth.
- Instead, not enough pressure and Ervin duly led an impressive dissection of our defence.
- Oscar had a great game. Best I've seen him play. I now wish we had picked him up when he was looking for a contract at HSH in April!
- Winder is struggling to make the impact we need him to as an import. His outside shooting was horrible tonight, but that doesn't have to be a problem. He needs to drive with the prime intention of collapsing the defence to get our shooters (we actually have some this season) open. Then, when opponents stay home on our shooters, he can get to the rim using his athleticism.
- Because Winder has not been driving and creating, DeVries has been forced to do it. While he did a good job (11 assists!) I reckon he would do more damage as the guy catching and shooting from the perimeter. I also think that is why DeVries did not do a lot in the last quarter. I think he was forced to do too much playmaking and I thought his legs were going a bit late in 3rd/ early 4th. Hence Marty gave him a breather and then he didn't really get back into it.
- Carter, nice game shooting from deep and forcing turnovers. So far he has proven to be a better PG than Winder.
- If DJ continues to play like he did tonight, I see no reason not to start him. At the very least he has to play more minutes.
- Good game from Jeff Dowdell. Nice to see a role player we can rely on again. Its been too long.
- Solid game from Hill. He looks much more assured and under control this season.
- Solid from Holmes again, but he did get torched by Oscar in the first quarter.
- Balls was ok, but the only thing he does really well is shoot and he doesn't get enough shots in the right spots to really hurt teams.
- Ng... yuh... if you can't say anything nice...
- Now in a completely unrelated commment. Wouldn't Daniel Dillon look good on the Sixers?

Jonno, I wouldn't start Holmes at all. As soon as DJ is consistent enough to start, he should take Holmes spot and we should run either Carter, Winder and Devries, or Winder, DeVries and Hill in the other starting spots. Holmes always works really hard and is a solid player, but IMO we will never contend with him as a starter.

Jonno, every time you post a lineup I disagree on one point. Jacob Holmes is not a SF. He's not quick or agile enough any more, has a suspect jumper and we lose some of his inside D and rebounding which is impeccable.

TBH I would have a similar rotation if I was running things, despite it failing tonight. Hopefully they can turn it around:

Holmes(15)/Johnson(15)/Dowdell(10)
Ballinger(30)/Holmes(10)
Hill(20)/DeVries(20)
DeVries(10)/Winder(15)/Ng(15)
Carter(25)/Winder(15)

Bizzy that is the NBA (More minutes) and even then they wont rest 3 starters.

Firstly totally out coached they split us well all game and got open shots which they nailed. They closed our game down and apart from period in 2nd we did not have plan B,
If Marty a top coach then Gordie is a Mystro.
Though Marty had a PG running eveyrwhere waving his arms around with or without ball and could not hit a open shot and has no defence did not want to get near Evers in 2nd half.
Whilst Gordie had Evers that did it all--penetrated -- shot -- hustled
OUR TEAM
Winder -- last year proved they wont sack him so can only hope . Why cant we get team imports.
De Vries -- Wasnt impressed when played here before just trusted better knowledge posters - Marty etc. Might get some points at times butnot lot else to get excited about
Balls --- Cant defend cant play C just put him PF and run some plays through to give him the ball.
JD and DJ are the positives out of game . Please - please start Johnson
Carter -- was fab and only guard that knows how to defend. Real positive
Hill -- Holmes ok both had good minutes
NG -- Going to do what Grandma told me ---
Having missed first game was excited about this game with new team new coach. Really though again beaten by a real team that well coached and desperate and organized

"De Vries -- Wasnt impressed when played here before just trusted better knowledge posters - Marty etc. Might get some points at times butnot lot else to get excited about"

11 assists and 0 turnovers isn't a lot to get excited about?

Fair point but thought he was brought in as a point scorer.
Coach wasnt excited about his game or would have played more last qtr minutes.
I was excited about Ervins game .

I was a little excited - I wondered how many he was gonna get. 11 at three-quarter time, but left off in the last. What a drag.

Bretts - see my comments above for why I think DeVries didn't shoot it as much and didn't play as much in the 4th. I don't think it was his fault. Thoughts?

Beantown, it appeared to me that both Holmes and Hill were switching on Forman in the first quarter, it wasn't all Holmes's fault that Oscar went on a tear.

The Sixers looked out of sync tonight both on offense and defence. I was shocked to see them go to a 2-3 zone halfway through the final quarter. Davidson capitalised on that defensive set to put the game out of doubt.

Hopefully the Sixers will benefit from having two weeks at home and get back on track. Looking at some of the posts in other threads the frustration from last season is starting to surface again.

Hawks deserved to win 6ers starters played pretty avg our bench tried to make it respectable, i agree with Bretts the man, balls isnt gettin the ball in the right spots he isnt a 5 man, start Johnson an put Ball to his natural 4 spot

Another good game from Dowdell. Cats and Crocs fans must be in shock. Might just be that Marty's found a more natural position for him to play?

No, it is because he was signed to my FNBL team Isaac. Had a good pep talk pre season with him....

Agree Isaac been a pleasant suprise and thats why hard to work out why playing not using him and Johnson more and leaving Ballinger at PF to keep scoreboard ticking over.

Folks, owners chose this team, not the coach. Clarke barely picked a handful of players. It'll hopefully change in the future as Clarke gets bigger balls and a bigger reputation amongst the coaching fraternity but whilst I'll stand corrected where I sit ..... coach did not choose this team.

Anonymous, it's classified. Sometimes you just have to choose what to believe and what to write off as internet waffle. Your call.

Carter and Dowdell too maybe? I think Winder was training under him before being signed:

Clarke on Winder: "We spent thousands of hours looking at thousands of hours of tape and he was what we were asking about."

There might have been some disagreements (ie, Marty says: "I want player X" but the club says "can't afford him") but surely both club and coach worked together to form the team?

I would guess that Clarke had a big hand in the choice of the imports, DJ, Carter, Dowdell and Creek. Didn't all of the Aussies above play under Marty at the AIS? Wasn't there also a Tassie connection with Dowdell and maybe DJ? Marty is quoted above as saying 'we' spent a lot of time looking at tape of Winder, so surely he had a big say in that. I guess I can't be sure about DeVries, but since he was one of the last signed, Marty must have at least been consulted!

Balls was surely considered a priority by the club and I would think Marty would've just been happy to go along with that.

That leaves Holmes, Herbert, Hill and Ng, all holdovers from last season. I suspect the club would have been supportive of resigning all four of these guys and perhaps Marty was willing to go with that, given he had managed to get several players he wanted?

So I would guess that Marty would have had a decent say in the team. Perhaps he was knocked back on some players he sought - either because the player wouldn't come here or because the club wasn't willing to spend enough. But I would think that would happen with all clubs every year.