Play men at one venue and women at another.

Simple

There are 5 games each of Youth League Div 1 Men and Women, that's 10 games. That means 3 games on 2 of the Dome courts and 4 games on one court.

On the 4 game court the game times are 6, 7:20, 8:40 and 10:00. If running on time and no disruption, the last game should finish at 11:15.

There must have been a major delay (eg injury) on one of the games. That happens every now and then, can't be avoided.

There is no alternative in my view. The games must be fully timed, it is Div 1, any change to that would be ridiculous.

The 6:00 game people would probably complain that it was tough to get there from work but they did it.

Life isn't perfect. Don't expect it to be.

In the Apollo days I remember a State League men's game starting close to or even after midnight. It finished at about 1:30 in the morning from memory. One of the earlier games went to something like 5 over times. This didn't happen every week obviously. By the way if anyone else remembers this night or even played in those games, tell us more.

Last nights game did finish at about midnight! I walked out of the stadium at 1210am and I'm struggling with it all today because it's tough coming down from a game and getting to sleep straight away!

But what can you do about - life keeps going!

What is rediculous is that they have year 11 and 12 students getting home this late. Along with inecpt umpires.

We were all told it was going to be an elite div 1 competition, but it is significantly worse than the old reserves competition.

We have already had a team pull out due to their programming. Week 1 the opposition forfieted, week 2 they had a bye, week3 a 10pm game and week 4 a bye and week 6 all 3 teams had a bye.

How can BSA take money for such a rediculous competition for kids? 1 game in 5 weeks at 10pm.

"What is rediculous is that they have year 11 and 12 students getting home this late."

Some matches are early some are late, they can plan accordingly. Year 11 and 12 (and uni) students have plenty of study time during the day at the moment for upcoming exams. In a few weeks they will have all the time in the world.

"Along with inecpt (sic) umpires."

The umpires are the same as previous. If they are inept now they were inept then.

"We were all told it was going to be an elite div 1 competition, but it is significantly worse than the old reserves competition."

All the feedback I've heard from Division 1 players who played Reserves last year is that it is significantly better now.

"We have already had a team pull out due to their programming. Week 1 the opposition forfieted, week 2 they had a bye, week3 a 10pm game and week 4 a bye and week 6 all 3 teams had a bye."

Um there is no Week 6, only 5 weeks have been programmed. This is Div 2 North Group D I assume. What else can BSA do when clubs pull out teams at the last moment?

Scoring Stats are being entered on Sportingpulse - but we have had a few kids back from injury playing last night and one played last week yet their stats not being entered although all others are - Did you have to commence playing from the first week to get your stats entered??

I like the comp but i do agree that the times finishing is ridiculous. I know in the old days games were played until all hours however times have changed. BSA need to come up with a better way and if that means not having fully timed games or reducing minutes played per qtr or not all playing at the dome then so be it.

Mimas 19, the YL is not only a pathway to ABA for the players, it is also a pathway for the refs as well. They need to learn to officiate at a higher level somewhere as the jump from juniors to seniors is quite large.

Just like to point out as well that a large contingent of ABA referees are helping out and are being spread evenly between the Div 1 & 2 comps so the level of referees is appropriate for the competition.

Could it also be that some of the players coming up from juniors into the YL are having trouble adjusting to the way the game is refereed at a higher level?

ie: players are allowed to play through the contact (adv/disadvantage)and the "junior bumps" are not called?

After three weeks of Division 1 games as a coach I have absolutely no issue with any of the 6 umpires we have had over our 3 games! The umpiring has been pretty good in my opinion. I haven't noticed them and that's how I believe you judge a ref - the less you notice they are there the better job they are doing.

Credit where credit is due.

You guys are kidding youselves if you think that this will be a stepping stone into ABA.

The standard is on where near the reserves competition we had last year. And neither is the refereeing.

ABA coaches will want veteran players who can win, not young scrubs who think that because they once scored 20 in a weak comp they can play.

I dont see people flocking to play either. Teams are pulling out left right and centre. You would have less U23 teams now than old Friday night U20 teams and senior team.

BSA will be losing money and we will get hit with price increases and decreased services very soon.

I'm sorry you never made it to the level you believed you should Mimas 19 but the sooner you build a bridge and get over it you won't be so synical and such a negative whinger!

Geez dude!

Those guys were already playing ABA and reserves.

So having the U23 comp isn't changing their ability or opportunity.

All it will do is give false hope to the guys who weren't good enough before, and now think that they are.

And it will only decrease the standard they are playing as they dont get to play with and against higher standard veteran players like they did in the reserves comp.

Plus it will decrease participation and retention for players coming out of juniors and playing 10pm games on a school night when they have to get up and go t school the next day. Along with players over 23 who dont want to play monday nights because they are ABA players.

All in all, it gives some players false hope, and other players no opportunity. With bad refs and scheduling.

Well, feel free how it will increase opportunities at ABA level?

Considering the standard of competition is decreased due to better players being ineligible.

And how it will stop players leaving the sport after the age of 23 if they want to play ABA?

Considering they can't play Monday and ABA because it clashes with ABA training.

Mimas, the young fringe ABL players who played in a crappy Under 20 comp last year are now playing in an Under 23 comp which is better than Under 20's AND Division 2 Men. That's the difference.

If you don't believe me ask the players. They say it's a better standard, it's much quicker and about equal in terms of physicality. It's way better than Under 20 Div 1, better than the old Div 2 and about half way between old Div 2 and ABL.

The fringe veterans who you say are of a higher standard are not as good as the young guys who start or get major minutes in the ABL. Again that's the difference.

The Dome was packed last night, doesn't look like a decrease in participation to me. Last year most Under 20 and Div 2 games were played with low numbers of players in teams and no-one watching. Stadiums were dead. Not this year, I suggest you go to the Dome next week and see for yourself.

How will it stop players leaving after 23. Well it's better than them leaving at 17 which has been happening forever.

I agree that the Monday night Div 2 needs to change, but moving this to Wednesday night will solve this problem and I think you will find that happens in the future.

I think the concept is fantastic and to be able to watch 8 or 9 juniors from your Club that have come up over a 5 year span play together for the first time is great.

These kids have watched each other play in different age group all the way through Juniors and can now play together providing a true representation of your Junior program over more than a 2 year age bracket.

Will the Sturt/ Eagles dominance of juniors follw through to a wider age bracket?

Anon,

Those guys are already getting the development of 'playing' ABA. AS well as training twice a week.

The competition isnt aimed at them, but rather the 'next tier of player who aren't getting developed in reserves'.

When we get back to ABA, these guys wont get any more opportunity because ABA coaches will want to win and will play the older, better guys.

So the idea of the competition will not reach its purpose because it is being used as a run around rather than development. Because real development happens at trainings.

Yeah I agree with the Anon who was devo about his stats not being online. I want my stats online so I can hoard all teh biddies!

No, both groups of young players are better off.

The ready made ABL players get to play in a better comp than the old Div 2. Remember if they started they couldn't even play this last year and had to play in a crappy Under 20 comp which was just added to their workload for no benefit.

The young players who are not ready to play, get their chance to develop in a better standard league. They WILL get to play if they are good enough and they have a better chance to become good enough in the new league.

The losers in this are the older than 23 players who do not start. They get a lesser standard game and possibly one less training. No argument there.

You say real development happens at trainings. No argument there. Trainings are no different for any under 23 player, just the older players, unless their club changes their schedules, which some have done.

By the way, the Eagles train 3 times a week. Don't know how this affects them.

No, actually more players are ineligible.

How many U23 players started last year in the mens comp?

Not as many as over 23 plasyers who can't play now.

Sure it might be a higher standard for the guys who played U20 div 1 last year. But it certainly isn't as high as div 2 last year.

I think we will have to agree to disagree on the standards of each comp.

I am a player in both youth league and reserves. The level of competition in substancialy better in reserves even with most of the older ABA players taking a break. The players that were already playing on the mens sides are by far the stronger players in the competition Bond, Elliot, Warbout,Howell and are dominating the younger players but are playing against much weaker opponents physicaly. Its is not even close even within the league there is a huge amount of muscle development from a 17 year old boy to a 22 year old man. im not saying the league is bad but it is not close to being the standard of reserves in most teams. If you match up reserves sides to youth leauge sides in most cases you will find the reserves side is probably a 20-30 point better team i only post because i am shocked that people think otherwise

anon and Charon,

Which teams are better than lasy seasons reserves.

Maybe North with the addition of Bond. But even they have lost a couple of good senior players.

South lost Blight, easily their best player.

Sturt have lost a couple of senior starters, Daly isn't playing, Spehr is injured, Maynard is in college so isn't playing. And they are winning easy.

West are terrible. No Zacherjak(spelling), Bond or senior guys. No starters to make them better. Considerable worse.

Norwood are a lower standard. No U23 starters to make them better.

Maybe Southern are a bit better with Florence.

Forestville are certainly worse without their senior guys, and no U23 starters to come in.

Woodville, Centrals and Eastern haven't got starters coming in making them better. And they werern't that good without their over 23 guys.

Which guys are making this comp better? All Ive got is Warbout and Florence.

In the men, North, Sturt and possibly Southern Under 23's are all better than the two reserves finallists last year. Sturt with their full team (they are playing with half their team at the moment) are 30 better. South would be close as well with the addition of Hooley and Isaiah. Centrals are better than their team last year. Woodville are about the same. Forestville are down but still have a good team, same with Norwood, lots of good players. Eastern have gone very young so they have downgraded but will improve heaps. West are significantly down. Overall that's an upgrade in my book.

In the women I caught the Sturt vs Norwood game on Tuesday night. Can't talk for the rest of the comp but the Sturt team would have won reserves last year and they will have Seekamp and Langford playing after WNBL. Seekamp played the week before according to Sporting Pulse.

Also in winter you will have everyone playing, including guys and girls back from college that will further upgrade the competition. Phillips, Maynard, McMath, Bolton, McPhail, Gleeson, Nagy etc. College players are allowed to play Youth League but not seniors (at least that's the ruling in Victoria). That boosts the competition significantly.

How are south better? Your in lala land.

Hooley and Isiah would be able to play reserves because they aren't starters, plus they would have Blight and others who are not allowed to play. Put Blight and Read into that team and you have last years reserves team.

How are North better, Bond and Elliot might not start ABA and therefore the team is only missing players.

All those college players are able to play reserves anyway and have in the past so no real changes there.

Again, the only people it is really effecting is those ABA players under the age of 23 who start.

Right now, only Florence and Warbout get to play, and probably 20 - 25 senior guys who would have been playing aren't.

As for the girls, looks like Sturt had their reserves team from last season, with Hargraves, Smith and Morcom in , with Hooley and Smyth out. Only a small difference, really Hargraves. But the likes of Maycock, Holmes, Smyth and B Bowley can't play. So not even close to better. You are getting rediculous.

Hence the comp is worse.

I'm comparing THIS year's Youth League 1 teams to LAST year's Div 2 teams. I think this is where you are confusing jy arguments. I stand by my assessments and again reiterate, THIS year's Youth League Div 1 men's comp is better overall than LAST year's Div 2 men's comp, and it will only be better again when more players are playing next winter.

The South YL team I saw on Tuesday is better than the South Div 2 Men's team which I saw last year, which won the comp. You can disagree if you like, and say I'm in La La land (no need however, just argue facts), but I stand by it. Same with North. Bond and Elliott is a massive upgrade.

Those college players are not able to play reserves as it is not a sanctioned summer league. Youth League in Victoria is sanctioned and I assume ours will be as well.

"Again, the only people it is really effecting is those ABA players under the age of 23 who start."

That's my major point. These players (and there are lots of them) make the Youth League better.

"As for the girls, looks like Sturt had their reserves team from last season, with Hargraves, Smith and Morcom in , with Hooley and Smyth out. Only a small difference, really Hargraves."

I disagree that's a significant upgrade for Sturt who made Reserves finals last year. And again add Seekamp, Langford and McPhail in winter and it's not even a contest. The defensive pressure I saw from Sturt on Tuesday was a ABL level not Reserves level.

No need to get personal. We can agree to disagree but I think most people recognise the competition is better now than last year's Reserves and it will only be better again in winter. This is not just my opinion but also every player I have talked to, who plays in Youth League 1 and who played in Div 2 Men last year, agrees with me.

anon,

Competitons dont develop players. Trainings do. And at least you are admitting the standard is lower.

And having a lower standard competition certainly doesn't develop players.

The talented guys above would all make their respective reserves teams.

And as for continuity. Every reserves player would have been training with their ABA team and as such they all would have been running the same stuff their ABA team ran, so its not like they will be making drastic changes.

If clubs dont want to improve their juniors by giving them opportunity in 23's, thats their choice. Dont try a police it to make it worse for all and sundry.

And if the U23 coaches are dumb enough to NOT run what their respective ABA teams will be running. Then they will actualy be making it harder for these guys to make ABA anyway. Because they will need to change back to the ABA program.

Again, it only helps the fringe reserve guys under the age of 23 who wont make ABA anyway because they aren't good enough, and there are already 10 guys in front of them for an ABA bench spot anyway.

Charon,

Other than Florence and Warbout, who are these players that are U23 and started in ABA?

How is the standard better when the standard of the players is lower? Considering their will all be running their ABA O and D?

And how does it help the better U23 players to be playing against weaker players?

All other states also have domestic competitions for over 23 players to play in. We dont.

All other states qualification for div 1. We dont.

All other states has massive numbers necessitating an U23 comeptition. We dont.

Exactly reserves was an inconviniences to alot of the older players! They don't want to do it! Half the 'big' names you speak off would only play enough games to qualify for finals and that is it!

So yeah maybe it was stronger in the finals but not the entire season!

Every player and coach I've spoken with is pretty happy with Youth League Div 1! But I guess Mimas 19 has heard it from alot more players and coaches than the rest of us! It must be a burden being the shoulder everyone leans on and tells how bad YL is!

"How is the standard better when the standard of the players is lower? ... And how does it help the better U23 players to be playing against weaker players?"

For the umpteenth time I disagree with you here, and so does every person I have talked to. I think the competition standard is higher now and will be higher again in winter.

Loyal Broadmeadows basketball Dale Sutton will walk away from competitive basketball after a 21-year career within the association.

- Article curtsey Patrick O'Meara (Hume Leader)

Sutton, 29, walks away from the game with more than 600 domestic and representative games to his name and a swag of individual and team honours.

anon,

please try and actually state come facts when making an argument.

All Victorian associations have high level mid week competition which all their youth leage and senior league players are able to particpate in. Year round.

By putting the div 2 comp on Monday nights BSA have made it improbable for those over 23 players to play and stay in ABA.

Victoria has an U20 comp as well as youth league. Which runs on weekends and players dont play both Youth League and ABA. So we are actually using a different model. Plus they have about 6000 U23 player involved in the sport, as does NSW.

And trying to argue that 'better name players' dont necessarily means the comp is better is just arguing for arguments sake.

Who is saying that all the current U23 players will all be involved for the whole season, and not in and out. Injury, school, work etc means that there very well could be a similar moving of players. And especially those coming back from college, they wont play the whole season because they are only back in May and some will go back before finals. So some U23 player will start the season then miss out. So you are using the same argument for and against yourself.

Do you actually think BSA is going to get the necessary paper work done with the NCAA to get the comp acredited. And if they can play U23, they could play reserves. Because realistically nothing has changed except a downgrade of players.

Charon,

Who are the players making the competition stronger?

um Sturt reserves girls didnt make the GF last year. They were knocked out by Southern who ended up beating Norwood in the GF.

Even in the U21's comp last season they only just made finals. but wer knocked out 1st round. Now that hole team is in the div 2 U23's comp.

most of the reserves team for sturt were the current U23's with a few older girls throughout the season.

I pesonally think the U23's is a great idea. The only issue i have is the lower age bracket should be 15 not 16. (I know of the Aust camp rule.) but not every club has them.

Agree,

It is in, and basketball and its players are worse off.

Just because people who chose to vote have a majority, doesn't mean that they are right.

Remember, George W Bush was voted in as President of the Free World.

If you make it for 15 year olds then when does it stop someone will want the age lowered then for 14 year olds, 13, 12 and 11 year old because they have already hit puberty and are 6'4". Bylaw doesnt actually state Australia Camp is says something different about having to make a Junior or Senior Australian squad is that what the camp is?? excuse my ignorance but can someone clarify that for me.

For Div 1

Mens

Southern def Centrals 106 - 68
North def West 84 - 46
Centrals def West 98 - 63

Womens

Eastern 2 x forfiets
Southern def Centrals 96 - 39
Woodville def South 88 - 54
Norwood def Centrals 97 - 31.

Plenty of blow outs.

Anon, not going to be authoritative. If BSA were concerned, they could poll coaches and players who are actually involved though - that might be a better idea?

Issac,

But the people now involved are the some of the ones who are better off. While it is the people who are no longer playing because they have quit who are worse off.

How do BSA poll them?

Track them down - I don't know, not really following this issue that much to know what the situation is. Someone's always going to be on the outer though.

We are talking BSA here.

Yes, which is why I hope you are the one paying for your time arguing the point - won't change much, surely?

Mimas - You don't like it dude, don't play/show up to watch - simple.

I do think it's worth discussing (and Mimas hasn't been rude or anything) if they believe it's not in the best interests of the sport/players, but at some point parties do have to agree to disagree and perhaps accept they'll need to present a stronger argument to convince people or accept the current situation.

Since I've joined in without doing more than skimming posts, can I get a summary of the situation? Is it at all like the D-League introducing an U23 rule (hypothetically) and someone arguing that the quality has dropped because someone like Carlos Powell is no longer eligible?

Issac,

Imagine the SANFL saying that the reserves comp would be better for developing players. And that SANFL players over 23 were not allowed to play in it. And those guys dropped from the league team could only go and play Local League if they are over 23.

Sure the guys who are now getting a game would be happy, but those guys getting dropped would consider themselves let down, and leave the sport disgruntled.

Then imagine someone saying that now the comp is a higher standard because of all the U23 players getting a go, even though they weren't good enough to make the team with the over 23 guys playing.

ie. By restricting the talent pool, some people are claiming that the standard of competition is improving. I would suggest that the laws of competition disagree with that statement.

But I have been only able to account for 2 of those players. Warbout and Florence. So that really is a moot point.

Dude, come on. We heard you the fifth time.

Then how can you claim it is a higher standard?

Simple. Answer the question. But the argument of yeah I say its better without being able to name players shows you have no argument to make.

Is it about the standard or the opportunities/development for a greater number of younger players? They might develop better against a possible higher standard, but they'll get more opportunities with less competition for playing time.

Exam's coming up how many Team will suffer when he players don't show because its to late thy needed to have a think about the time.

The last game started at 10:30 and finished around midnight. Add in a 45-60 minute drive home makes it questionable whether it is even worth going to bed given a job/school/uni. 6 is a difficult start but it is better than getting home at 1 am. 3 courts, ten games needs 4 time slots one of which need not be 10 pm. The solution for all players is simple. Move to Sturt. There is then no requirement to play at 10- problem solved.

The no-sook must have stopped a long time ago from what i have seen. Easy to be magnanimous form the comfort of the bar at 8:45 or 9 watching the other suckers go around until you deem it time to go home. Some equity would be a welcome surprise.

Hydra, 5 posts on Hoops, 4 whines about Sturt, someone please call the waaaaaambulance!

No problem strolling into centrelink any time of the day to pick up your handouts