there is no easy answer.

the ref is a decision maker and will not always please everyone - but it is the refs decision and not theirs.

green shirt process is clear and from what i see most persons abide by that.

where problems arise is when a player or coach knows more about the rules than a ref - causing expectations that the person with the most knowledge will run what is going on the court.

I see regularly good experienced coaches / players totally perplexed by calls they understand to be incorrect made by an inexperienced ref. yes the coach or player may be right but they need to accept that is not their job.

The refs do not yell out to the players "that was a bad shot" etc - yet it is fair game to yell at a ref "that was a bad call".


there are clear roles to play game day ie refs run the game, coaches coach their team and players play, parents spectators etc do just that - when people cross that line the problems start.

it is about personalities and knowing who you deal with.

I have grown up reffing from social Z grade to ABL and having full on court brawls to having the whole mental one upmanship game (ie we'll see you in the carpark after) thrown at me by players / coaches. Whilst it involved reports and monkey business - i would not change a thing. It all made me a better ref.

some refs may be fine with miniball but not district - you need to know what to expect, what you want and handle it.

when I have seen rookie refs on big games - usually i can find a senior ref / UIC around to counsel.

There are clear directions from FIBA, BA and BSA re managing problems - a ref must use the powers installed in them to keep the game running correctly. However accepting that power means the ref must be capable of handling the situation.

Players / families may rush across town from school / work be stressed and may only need an incorrect call to snap. Coaches with years of experience can see a whole season's results go by with a poor call in a close game. Ref's may be on their 12th game for the week because they need the income.

We are all stakeholders in the game in this state and need to support the development.

I feel a ref under 18 should never ref an age grade older than themselves - ie not a 12yo reffing u16 div 1 game. it is just a life experience thing.

sometimes it's also about manners and decency to part of a great game with your mates.

Very constructive post "Anonymous". The reality is that most of the biggest abusers of officials are not those actually playing the game or in some cases have never played the game, let alone actually read a rule book. They are the worst type of spectator - the parent.

No matter what happens on the court, it is always someone elses fault. It is the referee who makes the wrong calls, it is the opposition who always fouls little Johnnie when they miss a shot, it is the team mates fault for missing the pass that goes out of court or straight to the opposition, and the case described above where the parent blames the umpire for their precious little one's own clumbsiness.

Actually this parent is also a spectator at the local junior football/soccer/netball etc club and apparently the referees/umpires there also display the same bias towards little Johhnie as well.

I had an experince last year at a Karate Tournament where a parent came up to me after a sparring bout and said that she and a few other parents thought that I hadnt called points for her daughter. I politely asked whether or not any of them actually trained in Karate - NO. had any of them refereed at a Tournament - NO. Had any of them actually read the rules - NO. Do you actually understand what the scoring criteria for a point is - NO.

I took the time to explain what the criteria was and especially the part about the first technique in being awarded the point. I also explained that depending on where you stand can make a difference in how you see what is happening. The other consideration is that the referee is looking at ALL involved, not just one person.

She left a lot happier, as did the daughter when they actually understood how and why the calls went the way they did. How many basketball parents take the time to do the same.

I'm glad #239 said it first. I have long detested the notion that the game wouldn't exist without referees. Most games are in fact better without refs in many ways - the laws of the jungle mean if you are willing to take somebody's head off then you better be prepared to lose your own! ALL games were invented before they decided they needed referees.

We (players/cooaches/parents) get frustrated when we see the resources that are put into refereeing not produce a consistent or fair effect. All of the points made above are valid - BUT - when i see two referees and a referees supervisor costing in excess of $250 for a game of D-League basketball and the job still being done poorly, I feel like I have the right (as a consumer) to expect more.

If, in my business, I dealt with a customer the way many referees are taught to deal with players and coaches - I'd be out of business before it got dark. The 'talk to the hand', the 'no more coach' on the first enquiry, the 'this conversation is over' following a legitimate enquiry - none of it breeds trust that there is an effort to improve the performance or understand the game.

I approached a referees evaluator the other to ask to whom should I make a complaint about the refereeing (I was worried about player safety - the game was getting out of hand). I was told that there was a form on the website but that the first person they would ask would be him and he would tell them my complaint was rubbish! So just an attitude that the performance of the refs can simply not be questioned - other than by the evaluators who will tear strips off them behind closed doors.

There are many, many good refs out there but there are also many who pursue personal agendas or are there just to collec the cash.

To the above posters who obviously are still refereeing (I gave that up a long time ago) I would make three simple points:
- I think your first and foremost job is to make the game safe for everybody.
- Secondly - it's a referee's job to make the game FAIR, not to make the game EVEN. Some players are better than others - faster, bigger, stronger, taller, more skilled - they will be harder to stop, dont let teams use illegal means to do that - it holds back the development of both players. Some teams foul more than others - a 5-1 foul count often means a team has purdued a 'wear-em-out' strategy. Foul hard and early, then point to the foul count and get open slather as the referees try and even things up.
- thirdly - try and understand why certain things happen - eg, fouling a lot early, holding off the ball, bumping all the way down the court. Singly, they may seem incidental and minor but as a part of a strategy, they combine to wear opposition teams down by consistently breaking rules. You know in the backcourt you've got a foul to give, the ref will say hands out th efirst time and if you keep your hands out after that no problem. Except that 20 possessions later the point guard has been fouled 20 times without penalty! Good chance there's going to be a couple of clean turnovers late in the game.

So there would be games without refs and the anarchy would be accepted? People, the cupboard is a little bare at the moment- look at the opportunities a few refs were given this year at ABL level merely because there was no other higher ref to officiate. There has been efforts made to bolster the ranks but unfortunately the rate of refs leaving due to abuse, at all levels mini ball and up, is staggering. I talk to many refs of various "ranks" or experience and the question of abuse always comes up. The code of conduct is a good step forward and I agree there are some young refs who would rather T you than talk to you but they ARE in the minority. I get close hand experience of abuse several times a week in the various stadiums my child refs in and this has been going on for years.

One poster asks if the refs are given development. Yes there are several programms from developing up and coming potential to making sure the ones that have taken the step to ABA or beyond get together and look at trwnds, rule changes etc. There could be a lot more happening but I suppose money and the lack of having volunteers, who are excellent and give of their time and experience, able to find much time when they have a LIFE makes it a slow process.

All the talk that has been going on with topics on Hoops has both helped and hindered. Maybe the hierachy will start to take notice, hopefully the rogue refs will be spoken to and repremanded and the biggest hope is that people will realise that refs have family too- how would you like some of the things you yell to refs, and I mean personal ones, yelled weekly to your child. Many parents/coaches/players need to take a long look at themselves and realise they are a big part of the problem.

My 2 cents worth.

Ankles, in regard to your point about referee's having a 'talk-to-the-hand' attitude, there are some things I want to mention:

Firstly, I totally agree with you in that the relationship between referee's would benefit if there were a chance for real non-abusive dialogue between the two. Whether it is the coach who is being an ass and screaming at the ref, or the ref who is being an ass by ignoring a coaches polite inquiries - it would be better for all involved if the conversation remained civil and open.

However, I question whether this sort of thing is realistically possible in a game like basketball. 80% of comments that a ref recieves (from coaches, players or spectators) are heard while they are in the process of officiating play. Whether the ref is running down the court after a made basket, standing in lead position keeping an eye on the pushing in the key or at the free-throw line extended officiating a free-throw - the fact is that their priority is to officiate the game. They cannot be expected to do their job properly and listen and respond to sideline comments at the same time!

This problem exacerbates when a coach has finally had enough of containing all of his comments, calls a timeout and marches over to the referee's to metaphorically vomit out all of their frustration at the referee's in one go. No ref will properly listen to a coach in this situation. Even if a coach is able to talk to the refs in a timeout in a restrained manner, many referee's are too used to being abused in situations like this that they are very unlikely to truly listen to what the coach has to say. AND then, to top things off, if the referee's actually listen to the coach and take into account what he is saying, the minute they make a call that seems to have adapted to that coaches wishes, the opposition coach will be screaming bloody murder and the refs will be right back where they started - being screamed at while they try to do the job they are payed to do!

So how can this be resolved? IMO basketball is a sport that simply cannot adapt in a way which allows coaches the chance to properly communicate with referees.

I've been involved in district basketball for 30 years as a player and coach. In that time, the standard of playing and coaching has improved enormously. Sadly, the standard of refereeing in that time has significantly worsened. That's part of the reason for people's frustration. We have referees who are nowhere near at ABA standard, getting ABA games because their is nobody else. These same refs then come out to Friday night games and strut around as if they're above scrutiny because they are an ABA ref. Two in particular spring to mind, but I'll keep those names to myself.

Secondly, as far as referee development goes: To succeed as a Div 1 junior player, one must put in two trainings per week in addition to games. I don't know much about referee training, but I'm pretty sure they don't spend 3 hours a week learning their craft at training.

Sadly, the Haines, Filmer etc crop of umpires have moved on to bigger and better and have been replaced by a group of referees who are far below the necessary standard.

Another side of this issue is positive reassurance. If a player has a good game, they'll be told be many different people, from the coach to other players parents/spectators.

If a referee calls a good game (which it's just expected that they'll do this every game) are really only told so by an evaluator (if present) or the occassional coach after the game. They almost always get told when they haven't been up to scratch.

I just think if referees got a little more positive feedback, the negative feedback might be a little easier to swallow.

I've got a couple of solutions
1)Allow umpires to yell back, constantly i am attacked by coaches, players and spectators what i wouldn't give to be able to yell back.

2)Start up trainings for umpires. PROBLEM most umpires have school, work, there own basketball training (whether it be coaching or playing) and who knows some time for sleep.
I know i have no time to fit in another 3 hours of training for umpiring, they are simply not enough hours in the day.
And who will run them???? Maybe you who complain all the time.

3)Add more umpires to games so we see all fouls, travels and double dribbles. PROBLEM not enough umpires to fill two umpires to every game, i wonder what caused that????

Just one other thing if you are a coach in a game and you look at the scoreboard and the fouls are 5-1, (you are on 5 fouls) and you are loosing the game who do you blame; not your players who have made bad passes or missed easy shots, NO the umpires who may have missed a foul because they may have been busy watching the 50 other things at the same time.

thank you for listening

p.s. i am a player, coach, spectator, scorer and umpire i know how it feels from any point of you

I don't not think refs should be abused. As a society we should have more respect for people in general and abusing refs shows a lack of respect.

Refs make mistakes, but we all do. There's no need to get too fired up.

I have found most refs going around to be pretty good. You get to know what they call and what they "no call", so just enjoy the game. There's only one kid at Mars who is so biased he is an embarrassment to Norwood, but just cringe and let him have his 15 mins of fame.

All the rules are black and white!! Its the referees and the referees coaches that try and interpret them and when they ask young and inexperienced referees to interpret rules, you are asking for trouble!

I watched a game last week where I got to a count of six with a post player in the key calling for the ball and still 3 seconds wasn't called. What's the interpretation there? Not involved in the play? Doesn't have to be guarded because everybody should know she's broken the rules already? She gets 3 seconds AFTER the catch.

A friend of mine once said that refereeing went down hill when they changed the uniforms to grey from balck and white because thats what they did to the rules as well (took them from black and white to grey).

I remember doing a coaching session with a group of U18 elite boys and calling every travel they took in practice (most of which they will get away with in a game for some reason - until a referee decides to call it for that particular game!). They hated me for the first five minutes and after that had adjusted to having much better, and legal, footwork. Took all of five minutes to make the adjustment, just as it would if referees returned to calling black and white rules (particularly at a junior level).

Ankles;
As a referee i understand your point about 3 seconds and how the rules are black and white and should be called as is.
Unfortunately with the game today it would make it an ugly spectacle if we were to call it black and white.
Before you rip into me let me try and explain.
With only 2 referees and so many players in an enclosed space we are going to miss things.
3 seconds is the one rule as referees that most of us agree we get wrong.
Mainly because we are focussing on more important things (in my opinion) like illegal screens, protecting the shooter and so on.
I'm telling you if we focused soley on players being in the key for 3 seconds and we missed a travel or heavy contact most coaches would quickly forget about 3 seconds and rip into us about an illegal screen, over the back foul or missed travel/double dribble.
Usually a person is called for 3 seconds when he has been in for a lot longer.
Not saying you are totally wrong but just trying to explain how hard a job it is for us.
When i referee i try to be fair, humble and non confrontational.
I also believe if you smile and enjoy yourself that radiates out to the players and coaches and makes it easier to all get along. As a referee if we become angry and confrontational thats when things get ugly.
My philosiphy, especially for juniors, is that when everyone around you is going crazy like coaches, players, parents and scorepeople we need to remain calm and be the voice of reason.
If we react badly thats when things get out of hand.
i enjoy refereeing still and hope to continue to for a long while yet.

Sounds like a good plan. You sound like a good referee - good luck with it.

THOUGH - (you knew there had to be a but!). I dont take stock of the 'maintain the spectacle argument'. Not too many people I know go to a game of junior basketball for the entertainment value. They generally have a more immediate stake (their kids). For those people (yes, parents are people too!) they want to see their kids given an opportunity to play fairly, and to develop.

I suspect this notion of letting the game flow comes from our referee educators who are most likely refereeing at a higher level where people are paying to watch the spectacle (still not sure that is a good reason to let the rules slide but nevertheless).

But letting the game flow and ignoring minor infractions doesn't make the game fairer (because invariably a referee cant be completely consistent in what he/she lets slide - leading to coachal and parental angst) and doesn't allow players to develop as they are being disadvantaged by players 'breaking the rules'.

My reasoning is it is easier to call everything beacsue you know the rules and you dont have to interpret or make decisions as often AND players will adjust as I alluded to in my example above - and the games wont be so stop-start.

Do they allow off-side to slide so as not to interrupt the game in soccer, what about stepping in netball?

Just a different perspective.

Ankles, I think you have an overly idealistic view of how soccer or netball is umpired. Plenty of grey areas and interpretations to be made in both sports.

If you watched even a small selection of games in the World Cup, you would know that there are hundreds of grey areas called. When is a foul play on, or merely a foul, or a yellow card, or a red? Subjective much?

And we wonder why some people think referees fail to understand the game? Or have poor communication skills? Or referee the player or the coach and not the game? See 383/386.

I completely agree with the three seconds argument from all points of you, but its not far to take it out on a young referees who has been taught that way and don't truly understand the game in their first year of umpiring.
I (as a young referee) has been taught to call three seconds when the player gains advantage from being in the key for 3 seconds, so that is open to my interpretation which may be different to an u18 div 1 coach and I'm sorry for that but I'm not going to change my umpiring style for that coach I will call three seconds when I think it is necessary and that is that, this is the way it is for most calls whether it be fouls, travels or double dribbles.

I believe that as soon as a spectator start complaining they should be removed from the stadium straight away, because 99.9999% of the time they haven't even read a rule book.
Coaches are a different story, but they need to learn to complain like they are asking the ref which way the ball is going (the way i do when i am coaching)

to answer your original question: because they are wrong

But surely we've already all come to terms with the fact that there's no such THING as a referee who is never wrong..? It is the nature of the beast.

after witnessing tonights juniors - it is clear that parents and coaches at the stadium i was at crossed the line.
coaches blatantly mocking referees and playing head games - and when the ref chats them they just brushed them off - smartly mind you to avoid a tech.

parents having a go saw one team's parents at least 3 different ones go up to the ref whilst they were doing the sheet having a full on go.

i take my hat off to any teenage kid trying to work through this.

everyone was not going through the correct channels and the level of understanding was woeful.

this kids will probably hate basketball and quit as soon as they can make their own mind up regarding sport - cause of the carry on of the adults.

so for you umpires interpreting the 3 second rule ....an offensive player can stand in the key for say more than 3 seconds ,they dont affect the game because they dont have the ball...what about when the shot goes up and they already have prime rebounding position...get the O board for an easy put back. Does that affect the game?

Which venue? So what did the Court Supervisor do about it?

On the three second rule, many rookie officials are ball magnets as they have not yet learned to look in their area of responsibility and do an excellent job of ball watching. How many people watching a game of TV experience the same phenomenon of watching the ball just bigger than a pinhead and miss action off the ball

I am please that the appropriate action was taken. At last the Court Supervisors are doing their job. It is just unfortunate that we live in a society which likes to blame someone else for their own failures. It doesn't matter how good the official is they will make mistakes. Unfortunately it is the officials responsibility to catch the players making mistakes. Accepting constant criticism is something we do not like.

Did anyone see the Bombers-Blues game last night, in particular the moment where Carlton scored a goal from a turnover after one of the umpires impeded an Essendon player so that he couldn't get a proper run at the ball? The conversation that took place between the umpires and Jobe Watson is the exact reason why there is a divide between players and officials, and this is why umpires get abused. While the incident was a complete accident, Watson had every right to feel annoyed. Rather than a brief apology from the umpire, he was spoken to in a completely condescending manner.

If a player (a captain, no less) isn't allowed to air his legitimate grievances without being told to get over it by an official then we are no closer to solving the problem of umpire abuse. Respect is a two way street and the more we put umpires on this ridiculous pedestal where they can't be constructively criticized, or where they live in this bubble where they don't have to put their hand up an admit an error, the more we are going to increase the current divide.

Anon 455- there was at least 5 Stadiums I am aware of that had solos last night- 3 games at the venue I was at. There are refs who have been around a fair while asking for weeks off because of this continued abuse. So what does this tell you all- not enough refs, many being used before they should be on a Friday and the circle continues. There needs to be a real think tank with all contributing ie refs, coaches, parents, players so that starting next season there is NO excuse for anyone to walk into a stadium and not know what is expected of them. What was started last night is a beginning.

Ok, from a die hard sixers fan.....I abuse officials because it is part of the game. You ref, I abuse. Its fairs fair. Your ref badly, I open my mouth. You ref good and maybe I leave you alone until next your at the BMC.

In State League, they are very amateur refs. Therefore, you cop it for the reffing you provide.

In Open and Under age leagues, this is when kids pick up their skills. I saw one ref recently call fouls on one kid who had good skill. When the kid got angry and asked for reasoning, the ref cited unsportsmanlike behaviour and threw the kid out of the game. Enough said, but thats because refs in this state, cant ref.

Luke Smith cant ref nor can another to whom i cant think of his name.

Dave,
Your prehistoric and outdated rant is why we are having problems attracting and keeping our young referees.
You think its fair to abuse people because its "part of the game"
How about I abuse you for your amateurish and very poor attempt at grammar.
How about when you abuse a referee and are blatantly wrong like 90% of so called rules experts, I am able to come up and abuse you.
How about if you think the referee's in this state can't ref you pull on the grey on a Friday night when we are crying out for referee's.
Your comments are uncalled for and do nothing for the retention of referee's.
Plus I think its poor form for you to name Luke Smith like you did.

Thankyou William, I have to agree completely with you, Dave complaining about the refs because they are there isn't apart of the game, it's what people think it is. This is completely unfair and wrong. Just because we become a ref doesn’t mean we do it to be abused we do it because we enjoy our work and want to get better but when we get people like you who abuse us because "its apart of the game" that’s when we loose refs, and as a result more refs want to quit and soon there is likely to be very few refs left and then you might have to umpire your self and we might then sit on the side lines and shout abuse and anything we want at you because using your argument "its apart of the game" therefore according to you its ok to abuse fellow members of society correct? Its like you would go into a police station and start yelling and abusing them and make death threats against the cops because you think you’re allowed to. No you need to respect them, umpires are sick of being questioned and abuse, most of us that I know of are at the point of just reacting first then wanting to put up with it.

Most refs are apart from the game.

I think if you ask any coach / player / spectator all they are after is for a game to be called consistently. A memo came out a few months ago now saying that the advantage / disadvantage is and will NOT be enforced for jnrs and Seniors Div 3 and below. Yet you go out and watch these grades referee's are not calling it this way. Is this being enforced???? I think NOT!!!!!

A lot of the current referee’s coming through DO NOT understand advantage / disadvantage (and this is at ABL level) so how can we expect the jnr referee’s coming through to learn about it.
I believe it is better to teach a referee to call everything (at jnr level) and then they can learn as they progress through the ranks about what and what not to call.

I think that it will come to a player getting seriously injured and a REFEREE being sued from a player for "Lack of duty of care" I really hope that it never gets to that stage, but I can see it happening soon if things aren’t fixed AND quickly.

I'd like to see the outcry from coaches/players/spectators when junior referees call everything that they see. Especially in u16's and u-18's!!!
Hmmm consistancy is always the phrase they trot out.
Do we call a charge at one end and than because one looks similar but wrong do we call it at the other end even if its wrong??
I always believed each play should be judged on its merits and not because something similar was called at the other end??
I honestly believe sometimes people believe consistancy in their eyes is everything their teams way.

What chance has any referee got when someone like William Wallace interprets "all we ask for is consistency" as "lets make sure we call every single play a charge". Consistency isn't evening the score with make up calls, it's making sure you apply the same rules and calls throughout the game for both teams.

Yep that's exactly what I saying. Hopefully it never gets to that stage. But I can see it getting there very soon if something isn't done AND soon.

i believe we have established that everything goes both ways.
My belief is coaches have the right to ask the umpire a QUESTION(bold, underline), spectators and players can stay quiet or can direct the problems through the coach via team manager
Simple
Less stress for the umpires and the coaches can deal with all of the whining.

I think the umpires in charge have to be less spineless than what they are actually being.

If they see parents that are addressing umpires in a disrespectful manner then it's simple. You ask them to leave. If they refuse you get the umpire to stop the game until they leave. If they don’t then you forfeit the game.

In regards to seniors I think you'll find its more coaches and players that you have problems with.

I think the main reason coaches at a senior level (Div 2, ABL) get frustrated with referee's is because they (the younger referee's) don’t understand the game or rules as well as some of the coaches. To be an ABL coaches I guess that most of the coaches would have been involved with the game be it playing, coaching or refereeing for more than 15-20 years. And to have a young referee who hasn’t been alive for as long as the coach has been involved in basketball trying to tell the coach how it goes would get rather frustrating. NOW im not saying that the coaches should abuse referee’s, but im saying they (WE) should stop thinking we are the be all and end all of the game and actually listen to the coaches.

If a coach crosses the line then fine warn or tech foul them.

REMEMBER RESPECT IS EARNT NOT INSTANLY GIVEN BECAUSE WE PUT A WHISTLE IN OUR MOUTH.

Just remember when we talk about experience, can we also include the number of games in that equation. You can coach your team for 1 game a week, thats 45 games a year tops. Or you can referee 3 games in a night two nights a week. For a total of about 270 games a year.

Now lets compare the 20 year coach against the 5 year referee. Interesting.

That would work if referee's were evaluated EVERY game and did their best to get better EVERY game and learn from their mistakes from the previous game eg (being out of position, missed calls, better court vision, better placement, watching off the ball) BUT SADLY there are not many referee’s like that.

Most of the referee’s don’t even hang around after the game (ABL I’m talking about) for the after game function to speak with players or even ask from the game film to review their performance.

Following your logic FM (which is stupid why isnt Damien Rault doing NBL then. God knows he thinks he good enough to do it!!!!!)

Hmm and I see coaches getting evaluated every game also.

hence the truism - practice doesn't make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect

And as you get to a higher grade, coaches get scrutinised publicly, and risk losing their jobs if they don't perform. No coach turns around and says "well, we excecuted 70% of our plays correctly" and expects to maintain his job.

Further to that, a coach can come out and say that he has dropped Player X for not performing, and that player can spend some time in the reserves fixing his issues. Very, very rarely does an umpire's supervisor inform anyone that he has dropped one of his guys for bad performances. Thats if they even do get dropped for having a shocker.

it would be good for umpires to have trainings and be evaluated and be dropped if there not performing. But the problems are there arent enough hours in the week.
For most umpires they umpire five times a week and those two free nights are heaven, you expect us to give them up to train??? Remember we are people too!
There also aren't enough umpire evaluators to go around. Plus being a coach is easy you can focus on 8 players all on the same court, umpire evaluators have too watch six over three and umpires are so thin in numbers you dont want to turn to them and say your shit, you get worse games. I can tell you i learn more from a div 1 game then i do from a div 5.

And im pretty sure Damian doesnt think that way you have to talk yourself up to umpire or you wont survive.

On a different matter, Ive got a question for you, you are coach A and you are a coach for a reserves team, coach B is a very old experienced coach who is complaining to the umpires about travel calls, the umpire has now started calling travel calls on your players who early that night werent traveling. What are you going to do? Agree with the other coach and continue to let him dictate the umpires calls or are you going to start yelling at the umpires to call stuff that you think is there and then IF he doesnt call it you are going to call him biased!
Sometimes you have to stick with what you are calling making it CONSISTENT if it wasnt called a travel at the start of the night it aint now and the experienced coach might be right but it doesnt change anything.

no, but an umpire aint going to improve in your game no matter how much you yell and scream

"and umpires are so thin in numbers you dont want to turn to them and say your shit, you get worse games. I can tell you i learn more from a div 1 game then i do from a div 5."

No, you don't want to tell anyone they are shit but what is wrong with the notion of only promoting an umpire to a higher grade when he proves his worth?

Anon 677 what i made up a situation (which i never seen happen) to point out why umpires dont change what they are getting wrong because they would just get abused more, not umpires do change what they are getting wrong.
No wonder you abuse officials you have no idea what you are talking about

The problem with most referees / officals is that as soon as a coach asks them a question the official automatically gets on the back foot and thinks the coach is having a go at them. It was just a question and if the coaches ask in the right manner the officals should respect the coach and answer them in the right manner as well and not with attitude.

What the referees have to understand is that most coaches and parents dont usually have a problem with travels and general stuff but when they see their players or children getting hurt thats when theres an issue. Officals need to understand that if fouls arent called thats when they will probably get abused.

I fully agree with air jordans comment:
REMEMBER RESPECT IS EARNT NOT INSTANLY GIVEN BECAUSE WE PUT A WHISTLE IN OUR MOUTH.

AS I ahve stated before the reason we are having this problem with referee's is because msot of the young referee's (ABL & LOWER) do not understand advantage / disadvantage. This is why the memo from BSA SHOULD be enforced a lot harsher than what it is now.

Can I start a "why are refs illiterate?" thread?

good thing people care about grammar on this site and not the actual thread.

Children, children, thats enough bickering.
Most people have shared their points of view and as a whole most of us agree (except 1 or 2 rednecks)
Refs should not have to put up with abuse. While coaches and players should receive fair, consistant reffing to the best of the referee's ability.

BSA handed out a flyer this week because it appears this abuse has got out of hand.

What I think should occur (FWIW):
1) Referee's match payments increased to entice more refs and enthuse the current batch.

2) Parents warned once, coach notified, second time parents name taken and sent in to BSA to monitor, ejected from the game only if necessary.

3) Referee assessed. In the SANFL junior ranks coaches are asked to critique the umpires performance. This is collated and shared with the ump at an appropriate time. It is not used to belittle the ump but to make improvements to decisions that require attention which occur over several games.

4) Court supervisors to play a greater role and be seen courtside. They get the extra dollars and should not be sitting around, refusing to attend to coaches on-court concerns.

What about targeting div 2 players in u/16 and u/18 to become ref's? I've always found the best ref's are those that have played the game at a reasonable level as they understand what it feels like to be a player and responding to a coach. Might help with dealing with abuse, possibly they are keen for extra $$$ and hopefully they see a pathway to continue their career in basketball.

My two cents:

Charon29 and others have said something along these lines:

Secondly, as far as referee development goes: To succeed as a Div 1 junior player, one must put in two trainings per week in addition to games. I don't know much about referee training, but I'm pretty sure they don't spend 3 hours a week learning their craft at training.


It is a great idea to send referees to 3 hour training sessions, awesome fantastic. Let them talk rules see film discuss plays etc.

Referees are not like players. They cannot go to a court and practice reffing! A player can work on his jump shot, practice dribbling etc etc. The only way a referee can practice is "on the court" in game situations. Unfortuantely its a nature of the beast. Until maybe some clubs get referees to come to their training sessions and ref scrimages there is no other place but in game situations to practice.

Someone above said you ref i abuse. That's fine at a 36ers game. You pay your $20 in a professional sports environment you should be allowed to abuse the hell out fo the referees, its your right its actually a religion in Australia. But at domestic level your only hurting yourself. Referee retention is at an all time low due to abuse. If your an office worker would you allow someone off the street to stand at your desk and yell at you all day, say personal things etc NO you wouldnt. Thats why young refs leave the game because they dont get abused working in the kitchen at McDonalds flipping burgers.

There is another old saying if you kick a dog often enough it will eventaully bite you. People above have complained about refs giving techs etc etc. Most people after a while get sick of abuse and eventually they say stuff it and hit you with a T. I've seen coaches complain about every call. It may have been the worst reffing display ever but not every call is wrong. Just a tip, if you complain about every call your going to get a T or get treated as the boy who cried wolf. And when you do have a legitimate comment or question it will go un-heard do to the fact the ref has swithced off.

We all wish the rules were black and white. But if you look at the rule book advantage/disadvantage applies to both fouls and violations. The difference is the good refs have a feel for the game the bad dont. Anonymous said 6 seconds in the key is fine.......that's ridiculous as someone pointed out due to gaining an advantage by rebounding position. But how many people know that if i'm the offensive player and i recieve the ball within 3 seconds (say 2.8) as long as i'm making a move to the basket in an attempt to score the 3 second rule now doesnt apply? NOt many im sure.

The bottom line for to long the powers that be have not invested enough money and resources into reffing and this is obvious. FIBA has always stated that reffing should be roughly 70% the quality of playing and the both move upwardly with the same devide. It's not the refs have got worse in the last 15 years, its just the players and coaches have got 200% better due to millions of $$$ invested whereas reffing ahs stayed at 1995 standards and most of the educational matterial is still pen and paper. Apart form elite officials not many referees see themselves on DVD to have any chance to get visual feedback of their performance positioning and calling.

Until more resources are poured into refereeing, especially at the lower levels the standard will never improve. It's as simple as that.

BUt to say send a referee to 3 hours traiing a week is the answer is ridiculous. The only way a ref can practice their craft is on the court in game situations. It's as simple as that

Anon 862
So because one referee chucked a hissy and said "if we dont get paid, im not doing it" means we all do??
And im pretty sure they had there reasons for not turning up and did inform someone it just wasnt passed on in most cases.

The quote I read was "One ref wrote ......." and then Questions why are all 'Refs' different?Singular to plural?Parts of Anons debate cant seem to change his idealogy on Refs no matter what other pertinent informant has been written to .
In this sport,everyone is condensed into a small area and all types of emotions play out.So what, if something happened as long as its not extreme ,the reaction is not standard,it will change at the next moment.Will the game, continually, week in week out have dire consquences when we know its not knife edged important?Will a ratio score for the winning team of two to One increase their problems if a ref makes a mistake or a coach bursts an artery?Very few players have a high scoring percentage,very few Teams from div 2-5 involve refs at practice,very few refs go to the top league games,very few players foul out every game.
While Ump'ing is the focus when you rock up,then 60-70% of the time it will needle you.
Male and female Refs have different lighter and darker moods no different to both the teams players and supporters.Sometimes the Planets align?

Anon #909 just like your distaste for people you feel constantly stick up for refs so is our disdain for you constantly bashing them.

The case you put forward about 1 ref not turning up due to not being paid is one example. One referee not the entire SA panel. Why isnt the referee sacked dumped accountable etc who knows you will have to ask the people in charge that one but im sure it is no different for players. My example would be and it is purely hypothetical and i am not form SOuth Australia so i dont know any of your players so lets just say if 5 years ago a yong Joe Ingles didnt turn up for state training one night without any notification BASA would sack their stud player who they hope is going to bring them a national championship??? Correct no they wouldnt. Hence i guess why the referee didnt get dumped.

My reference to scrimmages was across the board. Not just at one elite level. You seem more than happy to slag off referees but you have not been forthcoming with one legitimate way to improve refereeing. All you have done is try and place the blame at the feet of others. Everyone knows there are problems with the development of referees at all levels. How about you try and be part of the solution rather than continually being a part of the problem. All criticism, all destructive and nothing constructive.

There will always be bad eggs who make a bad name for the entire group just like there are players who do the same. Some referees are motivated by money and generally they dont go far. But the majority that ascend to a decent level do so because they want to get better and wont to improve. They want to be the best they can be. How about we look into solutions and resources to help nuture this, find resources to help them develop or help them get better rather than sit behind a computer screen and throw insults at them without putting forward any viable alternative yourself.

you gave one example of one referee not turning up to national's training. I'm talking about the 100 clubs that play junior state championships asking a Level 1 A grade referee down to referee a scrimmage! That's what i was implying.

But again if i read your post correctly now a couple of refs dont turn up to pre-arranged scrimmages. I'm wondering if they were underage titles were they held during the day? Were the referees who were appointed to these championships of "underage" or were they 24 or 25 years old who hold down full time jobs? Because what usually happens in other states is ITC programs and state programs of the like dont necessarily fit into schedulaes of people who have fulltime jobs. A recent example in Victoria for instance is the Opals were looking for referees for there latest practice match. The practice match was being held at 3:30pm at Sandringham on Tuesday........sort of rules out more than half the elite senior panel in Victoria who would be of ability to referee the game!! So just from a purely objective view point you have to look at all the parameters to actually identify if the referees were in fact able to attend. I AGREE......PLEASE NOTE I AGREE if the practices were pre-arranged and the referees agreed, repeat AGREED to attend and didnt show up then they should be sanctioned no question. But i do not know of an ELITE referee (in my 25 years involved in ELITE basketball) who has the professionalism to get to a National Championship would then have the non-professionalism to just not show up at a scrimmage they agreed to.

I have however been on the recieving end of turning up to games where the game venue and or game time have been changed but of course no one bothered to notify the referees but that is another can of worms.

"As mentioned above, players not showing up without notice would be cut. Happens very rarely - because players (esp. at a state level) usually have a level of accountability they are used to, and know and are willing to make the commitments necessary. If they are not willing to commit to the preparation, they usually don't try out.
"

I know of plenty of players at all level who get preferential star treatment. If the stud doesnt turn up he doesnt get cut. Please live in the real world! And as stated above most referees who get to referee under 20 nationals or under 18 nationals generally have a degree of professionalism as well as they also wish to get to the next level.


One of the main issues i was trying to broach was you were putting all referees into the one basket as being unaccountable due to the one instance you outlined. It would be like me saying all NBL players take ecstacy tablets because 1 Perth player did!

Generalised statements doing nothing for your arguement. Each situation must be assessed on it's merits, that's the point i want to get across. Just because 1 SA ref wasnt accountable or even 2. Doesnt mean the rest of the SA referees panel arent accountable!