Interesting. Given the NBL's well documented history of failing to secure long term free to air rights / adequate pay TV coverage, do you believe the second tier in the above system would prove financially sustainable? I'd assume the level of sponsorship would also be diminished.

I like the idea, but I'm just not sure the basketball pie is big enough to make it work. I understand we're looking down the track and all, but still.

Then again, I suppose the likely reduced media coverage would be offset by lower second tier salary caps etc. to some extent.

This worls for all States other than SA and maybe NSW.

SEABL, Queensland and WA teams have enough money and crowd support to be able to make the move if the season was bridged.

But SA teams can't even afford to go to the National Club Champs for 1 weekend.

Remember this comes from people who don't even know that SA doesn't have domestic comps. Wayne Carroll has been involved in Knox wwhich is one of the biggest domestic clubs in Australia, which regularly gets 1000+ people to SEABL games.

Isaac I agree. The top tier should be in China/SEAsia/NZ/Autralia.

Maybe 3-4 top NBL team in the Asian/Oceania league and the 2nd tier been NBL. NBL becomes slightly cheaper to enter but the opportunities and salaries etc. are greater at the top level (IE Asian league).

Remember China is rapidly growing and has 300 Million registered players. The top tier Australian teams could spend 3-4 mths at a time based in China/SE Asia playing teams and then their teams could spend time in Australia (obviously less than 3-4 mths as we would have fewer teams). You open up to sponsors like BHP and other International Conglomorates looking to generate massive revenues from China over the coming yrs.

So, in a nutshell:

"Superleague": Nationally run, say 10 or so teams.
"National League" Like the B's, but runs in the Superleague off season. Teams may be linked to a Superleague team (eg Adelaide 36ers play SL, Adelaide Pirates plays National league and feed to Sixers)
"State League": As it the current case with the current 10 teams.

Can't really see it working too well with a staggered comp. The aim seems to be to deepen the number of players, so I would be tempted to run the second tier in line with the main league timing. The problem with a national second tier comp. would be with travel and thus attracting sponsorship. You only need to look at Port Power/Port Magpies to see how hard it is to manage.

Good idea, but I would say strengthen the state leagues to close the gap between the ABL and the NBL rather than add a layer between them.

Like the idea of an Oceania League if it could be setup

Loco, it would have to be viable. You'd be putting the Breakers, Tigers, etc into a top-tier league with a good cap (and about 8 teams). And you'd keep the strugglers in a broader NBL league (8-14 teams).

Let's say Ballinger gets $200k now. In a two-tier model, he might play for the 36ers for $140k and the Hawks for $60k. Same money to him, but much cheaper for the two teams. The Hawks, for example, could feasibly halve their roster costs but maintain a reasonable 2-3k crowd.

Basically, the plan is for an 8 team elite league, with 6 or 7 Aus teams from major centres, that also has obligation in its licence for young player devt.

The NBL would be a 12-14 team league with Australia's best players with the exception of Boomers squad members/players good enough to pick up overseas deals after the elite league season etc.

Each league would run for just over 4 months at separate times of year, with the NBL proposed to run Autumn-Winter, and the Elite league Spring-Summer.

This would mean opportunities for approx 140-150 Australian players to play at a good or very good standard. NBL (second tier) salary cap is proposed at approx $400K (it could be $300K to start with if more viable initially), with all wages between $30-$50K for the 4 month season.

Elite league could have a minimum wage of $40K, meaning a player coming out of the AIS could secure NBL and elite league contracts to the value of $70K straight off the bat. They also get the chance to play minutes in a decent standard comp (NBL) and learn from training each day with Australia/NZ’s best players at their elite club.

A player like Nathan Herbert can pick up $60K in the elite league (as he prob does now in NBL) and $40K in the NBL and make a good living.

While the top tier league has regional centre teams, it will not reach the heights that are possible for the sport in terms of publicity and media. And with only one genuine professional league, players out of the AIS and college will mostly not be able to secure places and will be lost before they have reached anywhere near their peak.

Playing in the ABA is not seen as a career path by many. And convincing a broadcaster to pick up an ABA second tier league would be much more difficult than a broadcaster continuing their coverage of an NBL that now has an elite comp on top of it, played at a separate time of year.

In your scenario Isaac isn't he then playing all year round for $200k instead of $200k for the sixers & $40k in NZ or Asia or Sth America with a total of $240k?

Someone please make Paul head of BA.

Nutwork, my vision would be that Ballinger, for example, would get $200k in the elite league and $50K in the NBL.

Having teams playing in competitions that suit their budgets means that the players get an opportunity to increase their income, while clubs get the chance to achieve sustainability.

Nutwork - he wouldn't lose out - I was just stuffing around with figures to show how it would be the same for all players (better for many currently out of work) and far better for clubs.

Loco - remember that if you lose Wollongong from the NBL, you lose those 2-3k fans and all that local sponsorship. Two tiers keeps those fans and corporates involved.

IMO, the lower of the two tiers should be all about community teams, grassroots, BA-managed. The elite tier should be where the big boys who can afford it play.

Also Nutwork, you might remember me posting about a conversation Fitz and I had one day - the idea he had was that he would contract Ballinger for a year (say, for $250k) and then be able to dictate what he did. e.g., it might be in the 36ers' interests for Ballinger to play the main season and then rest the off-season. Or they could have him play in the ABL to drum up grassroots interest. Or sell his rights for the off-season to the Hawks or NZ.

Something similar to Soccer players. Sounds good for the top-tier players, could increase the size of contract they get and if the team worked hard to sell them, some profit could be had. Might not work for lower players, why would Fitz bust his hump to sell Coops when he could get more money selling 'Tez.

Well, if Adelaide played in the elite league and had an affiliate in the NBL, Coops could get $50K for the elite season, and $40K for the NBL season.

Real basketball money comes from sponsorships and televison rights. Unless owners have deep pockets. (and we've seen how that works out)

How would NBL teams make any money when all the TV and sponsors would want to go to the Elite NBL?

Teams like the Gong would be playing in reigonal competition no better than the SEABL but with much higher costs, without any great revenue streams.

1000 - 2000 /per game X $20 per game = $20000 - $40000.

15 home games = $300,000 - $600,000. And thats before game night costs.

Not nearly enough to run a team, and fly then around the country with sponsors, who would want a piece of the elite pie, or would be local and not have as much money.

There would be some players in the SEABL who would probably be getting $30-40k a year at the moment.
I thinbk if they are looking at a feeder league that they should perhaps look at a second team from each NBL club that is made up of the best players in their designated region. Similar to what the Buffaloes were a while back.
Adelaide 36ers would have the Adelaide 09ers who consisted of the elite of the SBL who would play before the 36ers, Melbourne Tigers would have the Melbourne Cubs consisting of O'Hea, Sturt, etc and if there were two teams in one state then the NBL would need to divide the local teams up between say East coast and West coast for example. Players can there come out to NBL games to watch both the feeder team and their NBL team.
The main factor again would be sponsorship and costs involved.
I don't know how you would go signing an American or decent Australian (dual citizen) for a whole 12 months stopping them from playing in other leagues in the off season. You would need to be paying them BIG dollars to do that and I don't know how many clubs abroad would want to pay to get them released for 2 or 3 months unless they were very VERY good.

Doubter - if you kept Hawks and Taipans where they are and added a tier above them, I don't think many sponsors would run away - if they were making decisions based purely on return and TV deals, I'm not sure they'd be there now. IMO, at that level, many of those people are involved because they like the sport and want to be involved. And I don't think any NBL teams are currently getting money from TV rights.

Right now, Wollongong are probably spending $800k on a roster and playing to 2-3k fans. Under this model, if they stayed in the lower tier, they could retain a similar level of quality and fan-base, but potentially drop their roster to $400k.

2500 fans x $17 x 15 games = around $640k. That covers a second-tier roster and some staff. Any sponsorship would help cover other costs.

Issac,

What happens when 2500 don't turn up. For teams like Wollogong and Cairns, they would probably be OK. But who else would get 2500 to a game. Ballarat and Bendigo (both get about 1000 for SEABL games). But that would be a massive cost hike for them. And why would they pull out of SEABL.

You haven't taken into account the cost of game night either, ushers, security, court announcer, ref's, score bench, etc. Nor road trips.

Stadium hire is quite tough too. Costs of $5K per night are not out of the question depending on where you are playing

And round trips would costs in the vacinity of $15k per trip. With 15 players coaches flying and staying a coulpe of nights. Even with double headers, which would decrease the cost, your looking at 10 minimum trips at a cost of $150K.

Add the coaches salaries, training costs, 3 - 5 office staff and there is another $250K - $300K.

SUms dont add up in my mind.

I pretty much agree with Sorry for Doubting.

I think we are all getting a bit excited about another layer of competition, but was not the original idea to strengthen the link/jump between state leagues and NBL? (not create another jump beyond it?)

Sure, it's not easy.

But it's up to each entrepreneur/club to determine the feasibility of a club in their area. Second Melbourne team could get it done, the Spirit with better organising could get 2k, Hobart, Gold Coast (if they slipped from the top tier), etc. One of the problems has been a gap between the powerful clubs (Tigers, Breakers, etc) and others (Hawks, Spirit, Taipans, etc) - separate them.

How well are those 1k games being promoted? If it's anything like the ABL here, barely at all - no radio or TV discussion at all, bits and pieces in the Messenger or Advertiser if lucky. Barely any drawcard players.

A second-tier team could potentially still have something not far off a current NBL line-up. e.g., here's a Hawks-in-the-second-tier line-up with some 36erish recruits:

Tragardh/Behrendorff
Ballinger/Janev
Holmes/Dann
Import/BJ Carter
B. Davidson/L. Martin

(From memory, Paul's proposal allows for, in the second tier, something like one import and four players who have suited in the top tier.)

It'd work for teams like Wollongong, Cairns, West Sydney, potentially create opportunities for Canberra, Darwin, Newcastle, Hobart, etc.

One key thing is that instead of raising the SEABL ("I'm not paying $17/ticket for a renamed SEABL!"), you're keeping the NBL and adding something about it.

Important to remember it is not a regional teams comp. It is still the NBL, with mostly current NBL clubs ie a mix of regional and captial city teams.

This comp would receive tv coverage as it is not competing with the elite competition. It is on for four months and satifies the basketball audience in Australia with good quality competition.

That audience is enough to make clubs that are spending $300-400K on players sustainable.

Interesting ideas being thrown about and a couple of my thoughts as I see it.

Isaac - you have said that places like Cairns probably wouldnt lose sponsorship/support. Id agree with taht provided the prices are substantially dropped. I almost grabbed a box this year with the Blaze (settled on Gold Season tickets @ $50 per game)but if the Blaze were not in the Elite comp there is no way known I would consider coughing up anywhere near what they are asking for their tickets. I know for a fact that ther ae a lot of other supporters this year who would say the same thing. So they may not lose supprter/sponsor numbers but IMO the revenue from these people would be dramatically reduced

Also you mentioned one of the issues we have is the vast gap between the rich teams (Tigers, Breakers, Dragons) and the others. Is this because these clubs are so well run and massively profitable? Or is it more that their rich owners are happy to burn significant ammounts of money to try and win. Im sure its more the later and there is no way this is sustainable long term. Eddy Groves is the perfect example of how it can all go wrong - and fast if we are reliant on 'rich benefactors'. We need to make the league profitable and ALL teams sustainable before we even think of upping our cost base.

Some good points Statman. NBL clubs charge too much as it is now, so if it were a 1 1/2 tier league they would have to reduce them.

As for the top tier, the capital city focus will significantly increase sponsorship and broadcasting opportunities.

Having regional teams greatly reduces the potential of the top tier competition to become a highly successful league.

Paul, I actually think that if its done properly, having regional teams can help the 'superleague' rather than hinder it

say in SE QLD we have teh Blaze and a Brisbane Bullets team in the NBL, they would be rivals for the NBL and then the best players from each team could combine (with added O/S based players if available) to for a united SE Qld team for the Superleague. If marketed correctly this could capture a broad supporter base from both Brisbane and the GC.

Same could be done for Cairns/Townsville, West Syd/Woolongong/Canberra, Melb/Ballarat?, Adelaide/My Gambier?, Perth/Fremantle?. Then throw in NZ based teama and we have a 6 yeam super league taht could play 20 rounds + finals. 2 games a week and we are done in 3 months. Aim for big TV exposure - showcasing the best players we have and maybe it could work.

With regards to the NBL teams having to reduce their cost bases and therefore prices they charge, this has to have help from the league. Whether it be from distributing cash from any TV rights deals done for the superleague or other means, something needs to be done. Marketting is the obvious area where a centralised body can take on the lion share of costs and responsibilities and allow the teams to run their own local promotion at a greatly reduced cost. Could there be something also done on a national level with things like caterring? Say the league signs up Fosters to a league wide deal to provide game night requirements. This could allow for cost reductions by giving the league greater buying poer and ability to get a better deal, in turn saving all the clubs some money? Surey there are lots of oher areas where the league could look after things as a centraised body - freeing up the clubs individual resources.

Statman, your first point is exactly what I am saying.

The regional teams are perfect for the NBL, but an elite league should have a captial city focus, with the possible exception of a Nth Qld team.

And definitely links between NBL and elite league clubs, even if not hard and fast links, is a good way to move forward and help development of young players.

Yeah agreed with a capital city focus, but not make it 100% about the capital city. Sure the teams would be based in Perth/Adelaide/Melbourne/Sydney and Brissy (although a couple ecould be played on GC) but to garner a braod supporter base you need to embrace the other teams in that region. IMO having a Brissy based superleague team named the Brisbane whatevers and put up on a pedestal as the elite BRISBANE team and marketted to Brissy people only will alienate a lot of potential fan on the GC (and even Suny coast) who wouuld be interested. Have the team based in Brissy but clearly drawing on the clubs around it and it could really be seen as a united team to take on the other big citys.

I like the idea of the 2-3 teams forming one in the elite league, agree with statman, you would need to call the elite teams SE Qld or just a Nick name to capture all of the fan base.

How would you structure the SA based clubs? I see someone said Adelaide-Mt Gambier, Not sure if that would be the best option. Perhaps you would do a North-South or even a Country-City type setup. Then have the sixers as the elite side, Thoughts??

Sorry, not quite getting this. Would the 2nd tier "NBL" have teams from the major cities in them too? Or would it just be Cairns, Townsville, GC, Newcastle, West Sydney, Wollongong, Canberra, Bendigo, Ballarat, Geelong, Hobart, Mt Gambier, Darwin and Freo?

If this is the case, I can't see 1000 people, let alone 2500 people turning up in the 'Gong to see Wollongong V Hobart. If I'm a Hawks fan, I would be majorly pissed that my team is in the 2nd tier, in a B-grade product, and probably wouldn't be all that interested.

And what TV network would be interested in that?

Understand, I'm not being critical of the idea, in fact I think it's awesome, I just can't see it working in this country, where basketball cannot support it's top tier right now.

Statman, with relegation, the Blaze could fight to take a spot in the Elite league. Potentially, each season, the top two teams in the NBL could have the option to move up (or just prefer to stay in the cheaper league).

Speed, the Hawks might not hang around forever if they can't afford $1m rosters to stay competitive. They were kept alive this off-season via a community effort. The fans there would need to understand that it might be a half-decent but viable team competing against reasonable opposition, or getting drilled each week in an Elite league and watching the crowds drop.

It's easy to put up Hobart as an example of uninspiring opposition, but what big city teams are they playing against now? Melbourne, Adelaide, Perth - in Australia, that's it. Right now, there's no Brisbane or Sydney.

IMO, teams in either league could come from anywhere, as long as they can afford what they're getting into. Ideally, they'd be big city teams (Perth, Adelaide, Brisbane, Melbourne, second Melbourne team, Sydney, NZ, Townsville?) for the elite tier, and a host of options for the second tier (Gold Coast, Cairns, Wollongong, Hobart, Canberra, Darwin, West Sydney, etc) plus Elite clubs that want to run an off-season team.

Remember that the leagues could be run at different times of the year.

Obviously there are flaws or pitfalls, but we've just lost teams, quality players currently don't have jobs and two tiers would provide more basketball across the country.

I guess the best way to explain it is a 1 ½ tier league. It is a continuation of the current NBL, expanded to 12-14 teams. The an 8 team league is put on top - at a different time of year - that only takes the very best players.

So the standard is still good (slightly below the 2008 level), and the league is still the NBL with mostly the same teams.

And yes, I like the idea of an Elite team called South Queensland or something that represents the same, which is linked to GOld Coast and Brisbane in the NBL.

My draft proposal has teams from Perth, Adelaide, Melbourne X2, Geelong, Hobart, Wollongong, Sydney (prob West), Brisbane, Gold Coast, Cairns, Townsville and two of Darwin, Newcastle and Canberra - whatever fits.

It is a very similar makeup to the NBL in it's heyday. The idea is to keep clubs alive and revive towns that did have NBL teams but in a more sustainable competition than they were in previously.

Love the ideas Paul, for me the idea of a 'superleague' that is concentrated both in talent and time frame is very appealling and would give the players in the NBL something to aspire too and also bring some overseas players back to play at home at an elite level. It would also be easier to market to the general public and in turn build awareness of the sport.

Isaac - while the idea of relegation/promotion would be awesome I cant it working. How you would have say the Blaze winning the NBL and going from a salary cap of say 400k and immediately jump up to a cap of say 1.5mil? Same goes in the other direction, how many people would stay on at the Sixers (players as well as other staff) if their salarys were cut by 60% if the finished bottom?

That's probably true Statsman, but it is important to throw as many ideas around as possible.

I just hope BA are ding that before they rush headlong into upgrading state league/ABA comps.

The idea is to link grassroots with the elite level, but I think the ABA clubs have enough issues connecting with their junior ranks as it is, and I dont see changing the nature of the ABA comps helping the top level competition in any way.

Agreed Paul - Im not wanting to be negative on any idaes people are putting out there - just giving an opinion on them from a different perspective. Im sure my ideas are full of holes too, anything that gets a new slant on the sports problems and possible solutions is good IMO. Lets hope Larry is looking outside the square and taking in all options before any hard and fast decsions are made

Statman, moving up a tier would be optional. I guess getting relegated might be an issue.

I guess the other thing it could bring in for Adelaide is a chance to give players like Burdon, Hoban etc more court time and try out Imports in a few games and things of this nature.

SEABL is the 2nd league, why not just grow it.

No SEABL player would be getting anything like 30-40k.

And if the NBL became the 2nd tier league it would lose its appeal and therefore its branding

It would still be the NBL. There would just be a shorter, prestige tournament that ran above it at a different time.

I think we are all getting a bit ahead of ourselves with this talk of a new league above the current NBL level. Let's concentrate on running a succesful season as is before we got throwing about the massive infrastructure set up required that's being talked about here.

Can you list the massive infrastructure set up that'd be required? I think a lot of it would be duplicating systems and tasks already in place for one league (schedule, publicity, etc).

Excellent thread with much thought and insight .

OK, yes, duplicating some of the things is correct, but that still means a whole lot more effort. Publicity has to be handled seperately - which one do you throw the adrvertising dollars at if you do it all the same? Do you see the SANFL and the AFL advertised at the same time? or the VFL? Actually, those are bad analogies, as the state leagues are obviously seperate competitions - do the AFL feel the need to have a third level of football in between AFL and the state codes? They have a massive supporter base, but to do so would increase costs, and split the supporter base.

Whilst some of the admin side could be duplicated, it would still take a lot of effort - it's not like you could just go "it's an extra 5 or 10 minutes to run a second league, coz all of the stuff is the same" Logistics, referees, stadiums, scheduling, travel, advertising, a whole bunch of other things I can't even think of because I'm not close enough to it, would all need to be managed and operated, and simply putting it at a different time of the year doesn't change that it's still a seperate comp, needing all of the things that a first one does. You may be able to duplicate the processes, but you would still need the people to perform those processes.

I'm not saying that there's not some merit in the idea, just that we should walk before we can run - we almost didn't even have a comp at all this year, which we would all agree would have been a terrible thing. I just think it would be a tad premature to try and talk about an additional national / semi national league - at this stage.

What I do think possibly has some merit, is possibly some kind of champions league, i.e. Grand Finalists playing off against grand finalists from other countries in the region in a tournament of some type - don't know how exactly it might work, but think that might be a bit more feasable - cheaper, due to both shorter time span of the comp, as well as more leagues invovled to share the costs - but again, still probably a tad premature for us to play any part in setting it up in a big way - if it was there, great for us to jump in on.

Just realised I banged on for quite a bit there, apologies for the long post!

And also got a bit off topic... Someone pointed out that the best move at the moment would be to strengthen the ties between the state and other leagues that exist currently, and the NBL - I would agree that that's the way to go to grow the sport.

I don't think that's quite the key - the NBL mostly needs to reinvent itself in the eyes of the public and the current NBL and a SEABL upgrade aren't really going to do it: it's just treading water.

of course the other reason not to grow the seabl is that its brand is very very badly on the nose in some locations. It's not a popular organisation, and while I would agree it is right now a very good second tier competition, it would be a war to legitimise it in some locations. The other ABA leagues, which are all truly state based, would not want to see the SEABL promoted in this way, they would rather see the back of it...rightly or wrongly.

Hence a newly launched national development league, taking top teams from each of the ABA leagues, including the seabl, but perhaps not the BigV (which is a shadow of its former self), would seem a better option.

Is this league still happening? Just grab the best seable/aba teams i say and make a league.