BOOM HEADSHOT.

no Hodge no championship

if we sign Cortez Groves then no chance. Our roster is not as strong as last years, and we barely made the playoffs last year.

lost:
Schenscher
Maher
Hodge/Grizzard
Davidson
Bruce

that is a big 5 to lose (counting Hodge/Griz as one) to replace with Burston, Gilchrist, Ng, Herbert and U23. Second import spot does not count as that is a new luxury for the team this season. Burston is no Schenscher, Ng is no Maher, Gilchrist is to early to know for sure, Herbert is no Bruce and U23 will not be as good as Davo. Then with the extra import spot we do have we talk of signing Groves????? Long season ahead.

Milhouse I know you will be surprised with how good Burston is when you see him play in fact he has been kicking Schenschers butt at training from what has been reported! The guy also won the under 20 state MVP infront of Foreman, Crosswhite, Rush, Dann, Caphorn and a few others. He had injuries that stopped his progress but now his healthy all the signs are positive. He has great potential just wait and see.

Ng I would say is better then Maher now as he is more nimble. Infact, when he last played here his stats were the same if not slightly better then Maher's season last year. You can't replace Maher's leadership but Ng is much better defensively (then the slowed down Maher), so that makes him equal if not better.

Gilchrist will be a much better player then Bruce!

We also get to add another import compared with last season. Why do you say that doesn't count? of course it counts when you are comparing this years team vs last years!

We now add more 3 point shooters in Herbert and Ng.

We add more pure drivers with Gilchrist and Groves.

This team looks to be more better defensively and offensively!

It is too early to say whether or not they will be legit championship contenders but I think they have a chance and should finish top 4.

Boti is the one who has mentioned Groves, all the sixers are saying is that they are going after a combo guard, who could be anyone.
The rumours about Groves have came from the sixers not looking at the summer league, but that doesn't mean they haven't found someone they like from watching tape and are just waiting for him to finish trying out for the NBA and coming for our trial like Gilchrist.

It is too early to call and I don't believe it is all doom and gloom.

We have lost a lot of talent from last year's team, but I remain upbeat with our chances this season. Defence is the key and we need to fire up with our 3's!!

Last season, I saw the major deficiencies as being:
* Failure to score off set plays
* Too many turnovers due to fancy passes
* Defensive plays not effective
* No real enforcer on the team to drive fear into the opposition
* Lack of three point attempts
* Subs were made at what appeared to be the wrong times

We should be aiming for great things. I wouldn't write the Sixers off just yet

Big Sexy, Boti wouldn't have pulled that name out of thin air - usually what happens is that it will have been mentioned to him off-hand when he's talking to the club and he'll build the story from there.

Burston hard to get round in D - Ballinger finding it tough going and Burston also providing good scoring now.
You'd think Davo,JR or Darnell could be better than U23 player - I'd prefer NBL to be open age .

What did we win away last season - 3 games.. You'd think this team would improve on that.

KingJames are you serious? You can't seriously think that Ng's defense is MUCH better than Maher's D.
Brett Maher was one of the best defenders in the league from his rookie year to his last year. Have you ever seen Ng play D! Ng cannot guard anyone, one he is too weak to guard the stronger guards and two he is too slow to guard the quicker guards.

The Sixers are in trouble if he is starting! Actually the Sixers are in trouble full stop! Keeping Cooper just because he is 6ft8 is plain stupid, the bloke has done nothing for 4 years, and will stink this year as well.

Matt Burston is a good pick up though, he will get 18 and 10 if he stays healthy and the Sixers use him.

Isaac, If it is the case that we are going to sign Groves, then I am a bit worried. People keep saying that Groves was injured last season and should be fit to play, how do we know that it is fit to play? We has he been training? Have the coaching staff seen enough? I have faith in Hill and Ng this season but not to be used as main offensive targets. I was really hoping the sixers would bring in someone like Skip Mills, a young exciting scorer but I guess it is not to be. I am normally a positive supporter but if our last 3 signings are going to be Cooper, Groves and some young kid then, it has left a sour taste in my mouth.
Saying that I will still be there to cheer on the team and hope I am proven wrong by Cooper and Groves

Anon, Ng has been playing in the ABL this off-season, just like Holmes, Hill and now Cooper (after his NZ NBL stint).

Firstly we were fed Coopers and Groves names almost 2 weeks ago for us to get used to idea and I said 1 announcement would be last week and next one this week expecting it wed- fri. I dont know this for fact but just see it as smoothing waters before actual signing announced as neither are good signings and those saying Coopers is are only kidding themselves.
Agree totally with Big Sexy that we were putting a great team until these last 3 signings.
Still think we have a chance to be around top 4 if Gilchrist can be PG we need and Groves can play 90% of games and can get 10-15 and apply some Def.
We are not big or strong enough defensively to hold really good teams. Our team like we will have them lining up to take 3 point shots just got to hope they go in at reasonable percentage.
I think many though have bad memories as we will miss Brett getting us over the line and his defence was still pretty good last season much better than Bruce and others was.

If the coaches have seen Groves play recently and he is over is injuries I am all for it, but if he is such a certainty why hasn't he been training with the team? Why aren't we trailing him like we did with Gilchrist to make sure he is fit?

If he hadn't been signed, he wouldn't be training at the time.

I don't know how common it is for clubs to trial a player who is not local (given that they probably have to pay airfares and accommodation for that period, plus potentially a per diem) - it was noted as almost a novelty in the Cairns article about Skip Mills that they were emulating the approach taken by Adelaide with Gilchrist.

NZ didn't trial Dave Thomas. I don't think the Wildcats had Lisch or White over for trials. Adelaide didn't get Hodge in for a trial in past seasons.

Let the players do the talking and get a quality 2nd import of a hodge mould,then sixers be in finals but how high on ladder depends on who sixers get,hope it isnt Groves(injury prone plus performances down at Dragons)We on paper need look okay,scott trail another import then you can see like u did with Gilcrest.

Oh god, here we go again. "injury prone plus performances down at Dragons". Hm maybe he didnt get his best numbers because he was injured? and how is running into ronaldsons arse injury prone?????

He averaged 12 PPG. you know Donta Smith that lots of people want to get but costs twice as much? 13 PPG. (Isiah Victor? 13 PPG. Grizzard 12 PPG.) Tremmel Darden? 11 PPG. Joe Ingles trying for the NBA? 13.5 PPG. no on on the Dragons scored that much because it was an even spread across players.

The people talking about hodge and Smith have no idea of the prices and should stop wasting our time here.

You are a wierd cat no 45.
Waste your time . How do we waste your time I struggle to understand that one

Isaac unlike those other guys you mentioned groves is coming off a season ending injury and from what I know hasn't played a professional game since. It seems more of a risk than the others

You are a wierd cat no 45.
Waste your time . How do we waste your time I struggle to understand that one

Cat 45 does make a good point about Groves's performance at the dragons!

Also I think he means people just keep coming on here saying we should get Ere/Hodge/smith or another person from the summer league when it isn't feasible to do that so there is no point them continuing to say that.

Also people keep saying Groves is injury prone. Can anyone tell me what his injuries were when he was at the Hawks? He had two injuries at the dragons:

1. He got a bad poke in the eye and missed a few games.

2. He ran into a screen and suffered nerve damage.

Both were unfortunate accidents that he would have recovered from. What are the other injuries that people are labelling him as injury prone?

Big Sexy, buy low, sell high. What might seem like a risk (and is likely something that they might believe is not an issue - potentially from seeing recent tape or testimony from two former teammates now with the 36ers) could be what puts Groves within their reach. For all you or we know, the alternatives might be at that Gruber level. The Breakers took a similar approach with Dave Thomas and got him cheaper than expected due to injury doubts.

You might remember that it wasn't too long ago that some were wondering if the 36ers could afford Ballinger and two imports at all.

Cat 45 makes a good point - a guy with an interrupted season averaged almost the same scoring numbers as someone asking for $250k.

I could put Grizzard up as a name at around that same scoring mark and you'd hear talk about dramas at the Tigers, chopping and changing mid-season, etc. From what I hear, Groves suffered similar distracts at the Dragons.

There have been posts putting up Brad Davidson (who some might call injury prone) as a veteran presence instead of David Cooper (has played a crapload of consecutive games). Is that concept of bring 'injury prone' an issue or not?

Bretts, I think they mean that those people are posting wasteful noise. You know, like raising Bonzi Wells or Shawn Kemp as tends to happen.

Isaac I am just hoping that he is over is injuries and the club doesn't have to (or could afford to) get another import half way through the season. I actually like groves as a player

What about Bonzi Wells, I cant imagine he would be very injury-prone?

Lol.

I can't imagine Grizzard or Darden being too much more than Cortez.

I would've guessed that Grizzard might've been comparable in price but in an email on Monday Boti said Grizz has a good deal in Japan. As for Darden, I'm guessing again, but reckon the championship might've inflated his perception of his value.

LMAO Isaac, that is gold!
Best pic for a while..

Thanks Isaac sort of understand now but little different.
Not speaking for others my concern re Groves who could turn out ok is that others mentioned like Victor - Darden would be a better fit as believe have too many guard type plyrs. Plus would haved loved to see the Grizz. get another opportunity
I didnt list Smith who would be the best as he is out of our budget . I am sure lot more out there that would compliment our current team structure epec with maybe
Balls having to back Burston up if required.
Isaac point re Davo to Coops re injuries is correct but Davo even last year when got on court produced good DEf. and scoring potential unlike Coops.
But as have plenty of guards in team obvious that u-23 was going to be guard

I don't think I can recall seeing Groves play, though I remember seeing he had some good numbers with the Hawks awhile back. Can anyone give me an idea of his ability to shoot from long range? Also, is he tall enough to play the SF at a pinch?

Since we have Gilchrist, Hill and Ng, I'd much prefer an athletic, 3 point shooting SF. If Groves is only a 2 guard and more of a slasher than a shooter, we're really crowding our backcourt and making it difficult to develop Hill and Ng.

I think our team would be much better balanced if we found a guy who can start at SF, defend opposing athletic SFs and hit the open three. In that sense, if Grizzard can shoot better than Groves, he is probably a better fit. But I don't know if that is the case, and Griz may be off to Japan as someone said above.

Obviously there may not be the type of player I'm thinking of still available for the right price. If that is the case, and Groves is not a great shooter and too short to play SF, I reckon the Sixers might be better off just saving their money and giving Hill, NG and Herbert a chance to shine this year.

I don't know about Groves' height but is a 2 guard can be a very good streaky 3 point shooter (from memory he like the 3 point shot a lot while at the dragons), if we sign Groves I would assume Hill would be our starting 3 man, he is tall enough to be able to play this position.

Was it Groves who had 44 last year and made some top ten list on threes hit in an NBL game or quarter?

Beantown, I suspect Hill might play all his minutes at SF.

Groves would be great, not sure why people hate him just because he didnt fit with Goorj,, neither did Maher or Catt in the boomers squad. Championship? well i doubt it but its only 8 teams i reckon it will be rediculously close and 4 of the 8 could take it us included. Il just come to every game and see rather than predict how this team will gel.

In top form, Groves is certainly at a similar level to D Smith, Ere and Hodge, and well above Darden, Grizzard etc.

I understand concerns about him because he had a poor year under Heal at the Dragons, and then had average numbers and a season-ending injury under Goorjian.

But as someone who saw a bit of him play last year, he looked really good. In excellent shape, playing really good d, and sacrificing his game for the team. With a bigger role with Adelaide, and the new tricks he learned under Goorjian, he and Gilchrist could be a real, athletic handful for opposition teams.

My whole concern with Groves if he is 100%, I love watching him play and was at the game when he had the 1 handed ally-op (still the best dunk at the dome IMO). So if he is good to go I am happy but I just hope the sixers have done their homework

Can't play SF, in fact I think he's played his best basketball as a PG with Wollongong. At his best he is a slasher and a pretty good passer but settled for the 3 too much at the Dragons. Carrying an injury? Just lazy? or didn't fit the system?

I'm not really opposed to Cortez as a player - his upside is huge, I just think a swingman like Darden (assuming Grizz's in Japan) would be a much better fit.

Agree with Xztatik that Groves is a true guard and no way a SF and as a player that likes to shoot his 3 pointers he will have to fight Ng ,Herbert , Gilchrist , Hill and even Ballinger who gets a lot of his points at 3 point line. I think another guard doesnt give Ng and Herbert as young talented shooters court time to prove themselves.
Also leaves us pretty lean and undersized in SF-PF area with only Holmes and Ballinger with Hill who can be a guard as well and of course ever lose Ballinger or Burston for a game very weak in C- fwd areas.
Dreading playing Tigers and seeing boof head Wortho cut us to pieces.
Yes Groves has talent to be a personal success but personally along with many others believe that we could have added to this team much better than with Cooper and Groves to get this team into top 4

If/when we sign Groves, I doubt he will be playing big minutes (he is turning 32) So I can still see Ng getting minutes, and we even might go small with Herbert Backing up the 3 spot.

Suggested Line-up

Burston/Cooper
Ballinger/Holmes
Hill/Herbert
Groves/Ng (Ng might even start)
Gilchrist/Under 23

With Holmes playing the 3 and 5 as well
With Herbert playing the 2 as well
With Groves playing the 1

I have put my Under 23 as backup PG but I think we should go with the best possible player no matter what position they play seeing as they won't be getting much court time

Seriously Bretts, you spout "much better than with Cooper and Groves" and what you've put up is Matt frickin' Smith and 'surely there's a better import around'.

Typically the next step on that path is "I'm sure there's better, but it's not my job to know who the actual options are." Then, when based on knowledge of players, info from team-mates, budget considerations and the like, the people whose job it is put forward their selection, you disagree and cite general armchair consensus as support.

Paul, posting above, is (AFAIK) based in Melbourne and spoke favourably of the likely candidate in Groves - that counts more with me than Adelaide-based people going on stats. I asked Boti for his opinion of Groves as a potential 36er and he would like to see it happen. Goorjian would've waited for Cortez to return from injury had time been on his side and he didn't have to qualify Smith for the finals so Cowan's money wasn't wasted for nothing. I'd guess that Burston, Herbert and Ballinger haven't raised an objection either.

Worthington will be up against Ballinger and Holmes, not an import SF. Can't think of many other teams that are going to be better equipped to handle him - at PF, teams will have Redhage, Ronaldson, Forman, Gruber, Boucher, Rychart, Hinder, Davidson, Wagstaff and others who are going to be at a similar level.

The SFs around the league are hardly monsters for Hill/Holmes/Herbert to deal with either - Tovey, Williamson, Boodnikoff, Crawford, Saville, Thomas, Greer - some good players, but not heavyweights. White (Cats) and Mackinnon will be strong it's not like Grizzard or the typical SF imports are going to be able to throw them around either.

And every team is going to be weakened by the loss of a key player. Take Rogers out of Perth and what do they do? Take Saville out of Wollongong, an import C out of NZ, Anstey from Melbourne, etc - they'll all have as much trouble covering for those.

At this point, I think Burston may be the second best big in the league. The Ballinger/Holmes combination is probably the best (or close to it) at PF. If Groves is our man, then Gilchrist with Groves as back-up may be the best PG combo (I think Bruton is very, very good though). Groves at SG backed by Ng, Herbert and Hill is quality (Penney easily the best there).

That leaves SF. Get a SF import, and you're weaker at SG. Every team is going to have one place where they couldn't budget (money or points) a superstar. Melbourne have Crosswell as starting PG. Gold Coast might have Vanderjagt in the middle. Wollongong will have one of Tragardh or Vanderjagt. Perth have Rogers at C and then the Martin/Robbins duo at PG. And so on.

At SF, an improving Hill and Holmes will be fine.

FWIW, my guess at a roster would be roughly in line with Big Sexy's:

Burston/Cooper/some Ballinger
Ballinger/some Holmes
Hill/Holmes/some Herbert
Groves/Ng/some Herbert
Gilchrist/Groves/some U23

And Cooper is the 'Jason Williams signing' that won't get people excited, have you thinking "surely we can get better than that?", but probably be more like an alright option from a bad bunch/circumstance. Great for forum fodder, but in reality, hardly a big drama.

After initial personal attack on my views and posts you gave some good reasons why a smaller line up with Groves could and probably would work.
I personally have a better opinion of Groves than other posters but felt that Ng, Herbert ,Gilchrist and Hill had guard spots covered and should be given opportunity to do so .
You are incorrect I did put up Grizzard and Darden as options but I dont know stats or money required on the many imports looking for job.
Hopefully Gilchrist will show us they are out there.
But do agree as with Tyndale you can get it wrong.
I agree I am a armchair expert but thanks for reminding me but isnt that what forums are for .
Isnt the main reason SOS group saved our club because they are mainly arm chair experts with a passion for club. I dont want to continue to bag Cooper as has been a good honest worker for club.
ButI felt for him last year with all the crowd groans and laughs as he tried to put the ball in the ring from 1-2 ft away etc etc. Yes Matt Friggin Smith is no star but at least he can rebound and score if gets opportunity and he could improve which is a major reason I and others thought that Sturt could have been given a go. Whilst getting a understanding that Groves could be good for this group .
You will never convince me the selection of Cooper was a positive move and it is probably the dissapointment of what I perceive as total lack of vision that led to what you obviously see as too persitant criticsm of these last signings .
And I am open to be challenged if you or others disagree but feel that initial part of Isaac post was personal whilst majority of it was good info. for all interested NBL and Sixer fans.

Grizzard playing in Japan for good money. Darden possibly too expensive.

Hill will be more of a small forward. Herbert is a GF (listed as a Forward on the Supercats site).

Calling the Cooper selection a "total lack of vision" is far-fetched - Sturt might be rash and lacking when it comes to team structure from what they saw at training; Smith may not move down for the budget and is unlikely to be any better. Cooper isn't exciting but there were clearly reasons for the selection. You don't have to like it. I think you're underappreciating factors like team chemistry and locker room presence and the need for a veteran in a young team. I disagree with busting out "total lack of vision" in response to what is just a plain signing and don't think it helps anything.

Given that there are no U23 bigs suitable, that leaves them having to back up Gilchrist from either that or another position. The AIS PGs will go to college and there aren't really other options jumping out. That meant playing Hill as back-up PG (out of position), Ng (criticised for that role in the past), or getting an import that could provide support at the point.

Hence, Groves as a probable target.

And that would realistically leave them the option of picking the best U23 player available, rather than restrict their choices to just PGs if they wanted.

Cooper had a poor year last year, but look at his 5 season prior to that - a consistent 6-7ppg, 5-6rpg and 1.5-2bpg – good numbers for a backup centre. I don't think he should be ruled out after one poor year, especially a year when the Sixers guard play was poor.

Darden and Grizzard have done nothing to suggest they are even comparable to Groves. Yes, Groves and Hill be lack in size at the three spot defensively, but they will have a speed advantage at the other end.

Darden was a good solid defender, rebounder, team player, perfect for the Dragons but the Sixers need more.

Disadvantages with that might be that good players are locked into deals by then, and that a late-season signing might not work out and by then it might be too late to replace and qualify them for finals.

Also, if you get a SF import, who backs up Gilchrist? Ng? Hill? The U23 rookie?

Hill is 198cm which is taller than Saville and McKinnon 2 of the best small forwards to play in NBL, so is not undersized (actually taller than some PF's)

KingJames... "Ng I would say is better then Maher now "

Stone the Heretic!!

Hill is undersized for a small forward. There is more to consider than listed height. But I think he has an advantage at the other end, and I suspect Gilchrist and Groves will be able to cover some defensive situations too.

Paul, I think Hill is athletic enough to guard most of the SF in the NBL, he just needs to work harder on the defensive end, Offensively if he has been working on his 3 point shot he will be hard to contain no matter who is guarding him.

Agreed. Undersized isnt always the end of the world!

It seems no matter what team we assemble there will be negative feedback! Judging from your thoughts if it's a money factor or who's availiable Groves could be a good fit he's versatile knows the league and can dominate games! It seems there are high expectations on Hill and Gilchrist. Brad's game can dominate and will be better than last seaeson, although working on the perimeter in pre-season should not overtake the fact he can drive it to the basket and beat most defence. To be a force Gilchrist needs to make a mark early(unknown with X-Factor)a general with flair, but knows when to give it up and keep the blue collar side of things workin(No offence Ad + Matt). Coops and Ninja(Holmes) aren't bad signings they can fill minutes. We should have a balance off local's and experience with heart and passion! Winning is not negative but Juggernaut!

Just checked some stats, Groves shot 39% from 3 last year, lead Dragons in scoring the previous year and has a career ave of over 20. Had 44 v Bullets with 8 threes. If this guy is fit he is a great pick up.
Had season of 24 ppg and 6 ass at Gong putting him in top bracket of players.
We now have Ballinger, Groves and import point, not to mention possibly the second best 5 man in the comp.
Throw in a good support cast and I am excited about our chances.

I think a lot depends on Gilchrist being as good as advertised, Ng and Hill's development as prime time players and if Groves' is healthy,
Even though I have complained about a few of these signings overall I am quite happy with the team we have put forward. Every supporter needs a player from their team to complain about so for that I say thank god for Cooper.

With the Cortez signing, the team looks like the following:

C: Matt Burston; David Cooper;
PF: Adam Ballinger; Jacob Holmes;
SF: Brad Hill; Nathan Herbert;
SG: Cortez Groves*; Darren Ng;
PG: John Gilchrist*; Under 23 player (to be signed).

*import

Not a bad looking lineup. Brett Maher is impossible to replace, but we essentially have three imports with Ballinger now qualifying as a local.

Just an aside, does this mean we have picked up 5 players from the wooden spooners of two years ago? I seem to recall that Burston was injured most of that year, Hill on the long term injury comeback and Herbert a rookie (or DP player?). Jacob was captain and team MVP. Was Cortez with the Dragons or Hawks that year?

I am not sure that it is a championship winning combination, but with luck we will be right up at the pointy end. Looking forward to the season kicking off!

Pessimist! You could look at those five guys as 2.5 players from the 2009 champions and a guy from the 2002 champions! ;)

One thing Adelaide and Cairns (and maybe Perth) have shown, you can drastically cut spending and get just as good a team.

Isaac, if I was rating that 2008 Dragons team, the scoring would probably go as follows:

Cortez: 8
Holmes: 8
Burston: 4 (injured)
Herbert: 3
Hill: 1 (injured)
Heal: -3,642 (no excuses)

;-)

Bretts the Man - I want you to be prepared for news that might come as a shock. Put down the coffee and steady yourself. Have someone at hand to call for help in case you are overwhelmed by this. Matt Smith has retired from basketball.

Totally championship contenders this year. Wouldn't want a single injury however. Think Gaze's Tigers - not deep but with a five that can destroy you and a couple of legitimate role players providing a breather. Oh yeah, they're real.

Is this thing on?