What competition is this? If it's social, you're best off starting by sending the stadium manager a carefully-worded email (ie. don't just flame people or no one's going to listen to you). I sent one or two a few years back to the manager at Wayville, and while I guess in the end it didn't help due to factors beyond his control, he was kind enough to explain the situation, and I felt like at least someone had heard what I had to say.

You can get the relevant contact details here: http://www.basketballsa.com.au/index.php?id=33

If you're talking district ball, I suppose take it up with your club and work through the relevant channels that way.

Start a new thread outlining the problem, and make sure you name the umpires in question. We all enjoy bagging out umpires, mainly because they are all dickheads. Problem solved.

Lol... or that.

Just shine the Jackman logo into the nite skies!! where there is bad officiating JACKMAN is normally on the scene !

or find Denny Crane. he gets around in a fluro green shirt, and his name rymes with puke! lol

What are the issues??? and where??? I'm sure some of us on here will feel your pain.

just had a ref turn and say to me "do u ever stop whinging" my point is if i make a personal insult directed towards a ref i get kicked out of the stadium and possibly suspended. Just because this person is a ref, why should they be able to get away with it.

i do whinge alot i wont deny that, but i never used a personal insult towards her. im sick of the weekly bad refing and this whole (cant wear an undershirt crap) every week. I look at the refs representing district basketball and there attitudes and feel like no wonder the sport is dying here.

Thats it?? They told you to stop whinging, and you want to make a complaint?

how can you not whinge when they call crap all game. my point is im not letting some shit ass ref insult me because if i say to them what i think of them i get kicked out everytime. thats the point.

Those refs in U10 can be pretty mean. I assume that we are talking U10's after seeing the complaint? Perhaps next time in the sand pit, build a bridge and get over it.
Better than a Tech!

Turd, do you think that maybe you were over-reacting. I mean try to get some perspective. Did she say "your mother is fat cow"???

She just asked "do you ever stop whinging??" Looking at how your reacting maybe she has a point - "ya whinging little punk"

One of the best social refs around is an INdian guy at Marion. He almost talks more smack than I've heard come out of any player/refs mouth but he cares about the game and cares about customer service.

Its social hoops just have a laugh and some fun.

Perhaps you could asked one of the refs when they are making dicks of themselves doing push ups in the middle of the court of the States Grand Finals in a time out. Apparently that is very funny. Idiots.

Personal insult? No, thats asking a question. Personal insult would be more like

You: wheres the foul?
Ref: stop winging you little fagot

thats a personal insult
not a question

i just got a waek foul called on me at one end and got hammered at the other end with no call. it pissed me off as i can whinge, this particular game i hardly said a word, and this ref doesnt ref us often. if this was a seperate incident i would leave it, i agree its not major but when its every week the frustration builds up. i had a ref who was telling other refs to tech foul me on purpose because she had a crush on me and i said no thanks. recently i got thrown out after i got kicked in the nads, the list goes on. i play the div higher and the refs are great there, they explain there calls and treat players like people. they make some incorrect calls, but are not wankers about it. im just sick of ref's (like jackman) who look down and people and treat paying customers like shit.

Thats all fair enough but if you complained about being called a whinger then you'd get laughed at.

If I could I would Tech Foul you for your grasp of English Turd Burglar

Suck it up princess!!! Sounds like the ref picked you in one. Truth hurts.

Maybe you should play married ladies netball or something. If you dont like a comment like that im surprised you play a contact sport ya pansie

"i had a ref who was telling other refs to tech foul me on purpose because she had a crush on me and i said no thanks. recently i got thrown out after i got kicked in the nads"

So, you got kicked in the nads because you said no to a ref?

I would complain about that!

Social games....make complaint to manager forget it,he doesnt bother,he just leaves the complaint in a folder and says noted.Many complaints from teams at wayville but same old story week in week out,we get same referee weekly,they dont bother with good refs which are on main games.We have Brett weekly on Mondays and hes a piece of shit,made complaint but still have him following week,his language,attitude and hygiene is appalling. Any one out there have same story of wayville refs???

You could use the old school North East / St. Bernard's trick:

Call a time out. Instruct a team mate to stand directly in front of the ref during the inbound pass.

Overarm a bullet pass as hard and fast as you can. Have your team mate step aside.

20 years later and I'm still laughing at how wrong that was...

Loco, that's sooooooooo funny.

Stick to the topic please. A number of comments have been deleted.

Turd sandwich, If you read the ABA Points of Emphasis, (If you can read) you will notice that all participants must accept the officials will make mistakes. When was the last time you played and did not miss a shot or turn the ball over?

Build a bridge and get over it!!

Neville, true that refs are going to make mistakes, and people need to get over that. The OP doesn't have that much to complain about here it seems, if all his problem is is that a ref told him to stop whining.

However, it doesn't make any sense to make a comparison between refereeing mistakes, and a player making a mistake (ie. turnover/missed shot) on the court. Whether someone gets 40 points or they shoot 0/30 and has 15 turnovers, the refereeing standard shouldn't change. Refs are getting paid; players are paying to pay. Ergo, players are customers, refs are service-providers; as such, players can and should complain when the service is excessively poor. There's a difference between a ref making the occasional wrong call, and refs who are lazy/incompetent/*whatever* and manage to systematically turn social basketball into a nightmare, week after week.

Of course, the best advice in the latter case is for the player to vote with their wallet, walk away and find another comp if possible/practical for their team.

If you get rid of the referees in SA that are not up to a standard then there will be no one left to referee your games. Its about time that everyone got used to the fact that the refereeing standard in SA is average and is not going to improve any time soon.

If you get rid of the referees in SA that are not up to a standard then there will be no one left to referee your games. Its about time that everyone got used to the fact that the refereeing standard in SA is average and is not going to improve any time soon.

everyone knows referee standard is average, but some ref's not all talk down to players. I personally find it frustrating when ref's do this, and i think everyone here does as well. we are paying custmers, you expect some form of professionalism when paying the prices were being charged these days.

The thing I find is the problem is even when you ask or speak to the refs in a nice manner you still get attitude.

I dont think its actually the standard of umpiring most people have a problem with its there attitude towards all players I agree if the players are giving the umpires a hard time throughtout the game the umpires are going to give it back but when you are actually just asking a question either as the captain or coach you get treated like crap.

I think the refs need to understand the saying
IF YOU GIVE RESPECT YOU WILL RECEIVE RESPECT.
It goes both ways

What does a ref get paid per hour?

Sorry, anon, that sort of attitude, where referees can't be spoken to, or players have no right to complain, is exactly what contributes to a greater rift between players and refs. Why can't you speak to a ref? Why are they so above the rest of the basketball community that they can't be spoken to?

Why can you? Because despite our roles in the game of basketball, we are all still human beings. Part of being a human is communication. As soon as you take the attitude of "you can't speak to me" then you have done nothing more than create a bigger divide between the two fraternities.

What other situations do you come across in your daily life where you aren't permitted to talk to someone you are involved with?

And the need to talk to a referee exists because you have every right to point out what an opponent is doing, or how the ref may not be calling things consistently at both ends, or at least state your case when you feel you were hard done by. You might not achieve much but to say you cannot speak to a ref is retarded.

Will the cop say "don't speak to me at all" and continue on his business? Or will he engage in the discussion with you, explain his decision, and (providing you are courteous) apologise that he has to give you a fine? As I said earlier, you might not get the desired outcome but to completely shut off communication because you overstate you sense of authority is extremely backwards.

I've already you question, anon. Speaking to someone is quite normal. Answer my question, why CAN'T you speak to a referee?

Sorry, that should have read "I've already answered your question"

Anon, if you look at the first post I made here, you can see that I'm encouraging those who have deep-seated concerns about referees to approach stadium/competition management. Again, I've had helpful correspondence in the past along those lines. I'm certainly not advocating chewing-out or verbally-abusing a referee on the court, nor have I ever done it.

However, I don't find your contention that players should never talk to refs very compelling. I agree with "agree with some" - umpiring "quality" is not the problem here; umpiring "attitude" is. Of course, no one expects NBA-quality refs at a 10:30 C-grade social game at Wayville, or Mars, or wherever. But I also reckon that quite a substantial percentage of on-court flare-ups I've seen on the court could have been defused if a ref had been willing to justify a call of theirs on request.

I mean, if someone says "what? how did I travel?" in a moment of frustration, and the ref confidently replies "you slid your left pivot foot", then that's all that needs to happen. The player might still think that they were hard done by, but most of the time they will at least shut up and get on with things. If they don't, or they whinge about every call the whole game long, then absolutely, they should get T'd up, or thrown out, or whatever. However, when refs *consistently* refuse to justify their decisions, or worse, have a go back at the player, then you end up with popular threads on Hoops venting about refereeing standards. It's certainly not all the refs' fault; but surely some of it is.

Essentially, I guess I'm suggesting that your preferred world where refs are never spoken to is a utopia that will never exist; as such, all I'm advocating is, hopefully, a bit of common sense. Of course, there are players who go way beyond the bounds and deserve all the Ts/suspensions/tribunal hearings they get. I have no sympathy for those people. But you seem to be suggesting that largely, the onus is 100% on the player and 0% on the referee in terms of keeping frustration levels low on the social court, and while that might be technically true according to the rules, I personally think that that's just not realistic.

It does not stop people doing what they need to do. It's not like every comment wastes minutes of valuable time - if you are going to quote extreme scenarios as the basis for your warped view, then you are just showing that you don't really understand what it's all about. I can promise you that a ref who refuses to talk to a player does more harm for the game being played, the competition and the relationships between players and refs than any sort of communication.

So if a cop gives you a speeding fine, you both stay completely silent while he is writing up the ticket? That is normal to you, is it?

We're not discussing the risk, we are discussing your notion that a ref cannot be spoken to. It is simply an unrealistic suggestion. I agree, do so at your own peril. Most times you won't get the favourable outcome (although talking your way out of a speeding fine is probably more likely than getting a ref to listen to you) but to say "no talking" is detrimental to the game.

And what happens when they don't speak back?

Cops are one example, law courts another.

Just like some police officers will handle it the way you described others won't. Some will give you a smart arsed response, or no response at all or take you into the station and hold you in a cell.

I speak to refs because I don't consider them to be above or beneath me, or deserved of any special treatment which automatically discounts then from normal lines of communication.

Anon, pick an alias and you'll be no-less-anonymous. I think it's a healthy discussion and it sucks to follow it without having a consistent identity to tie the opinion to.

I would guess that most players would consider referees as less then them and treat them as such.

Even if you are able to speak to a referee, I don't understand why there is a need to.

Another question would be as an equal do you believe the referee has the right to talk to a coach, or a player?

Or does a player have the right to talk to a scorer?

Sorry anon, you are talking a whole lot of crap. That hypothetical about the ref checking on a sub with 4 fouls in order to stem potential abuse is ludicruous. If you can't discuss real situations then don't bother.

Stuff happens in a game. Players react, and providing they don't go over the top and abuse anyone (which I think you need to understand is different to the "talking" points that are being made) then there should be no reason that sensible discussion can't take place.

Deaf referees could solve some of these problems...

What about asking if the inbounds is going to be end line or sideline?

What about asking if your player can sub because they have blood and the ref hasn't seen it?

What about asking if you get the ball moved or not to the half if you call a time out?

Do you need more?

Referee's need to be able to communicate appropriately. If in any of these situations they deliberately don't listen, it will cause the coach to ask again louder to get their attention, which will be misinterpreted as yelling and therefore create tension on both sides.

I didn't says refs are my equal as in during the game we all have the same part to play. I said I feel I can talk to them because I don't bow down to them, and they don't do the same to me. It's normal human interaction - why referees think they are above that is beyond me.

Anon,

So you think pointing could possibly help in any of the above situations of the ref isn't looking at you?

Thats borderline rediculous. Which is why everybody is that fed up with ref's they can't help but yell at them. Which is unfortunate because it doesn't help anything. But until ref's accept that they need to communicate, and improve it.

Every level of sport sees players and referees conversing to some degree (AFL, NBA, etc). It's not going to change, and drawing some arbitrary line between voice and hand signals (seriously!) is a red herring.

IMO, the line needs to be: what is reasonable to be asked of a referee (clarification, can you keep an eye on this guy hitting my nuts, etc) and what is not (ongoing dispute, yelling, intimidation, etc). Then, a good discussion might be how to ultimately encourage that in players as much as possible (bit idealistic, I know, but worth a shot).

When referees first start out, they referee with a partner of much more experience to ease them into refereeing o give them a feel for it. At this stage they are pretty much told if someone agrues with u them your partner will take care of it and they will no be subjected to coaches and players having a go at them..

In the long run when they are more experienced they are expected to deal with any number of people hurling abuse at them and they just dont know what to do.. They just shut up or they get angry but because they are not taught the people skills to deal with these situations it is very difficult.

They are sheltered and protected, the green shirts, ur not sposed to talk t them but as soon as they get better its fair game, you can yell and treat them as any other ref.

The need to be protected when they first start however, they also need to be taught not just the rules but the tools they need to communciate with coaches and players because no noe realises the amount of communication required when they start to referee. Theyare given the tools to defend themselves (i.e. tech foul) but they are never taught the skills to defuse these situations and this probably leads to the attitudes that many referees have towards players and coaches..

just my thoughts

I think you will find that most refs will respond to a polite query, asked in the correct manner. However, most players in game situations are emotional and frustrated when they disagree with a call and will throw their hands in the air and argue heatedly with the referee. My advice is to accept the call at the time, wait until the next dead ball and then approach the referee and ask for a clarification. In most cases, I think you will find that they will be more than happy to answer, as your demeanor will have lost most of the aggression.

I think this might also be where the rule about players not talking to the refs has come from (only guessing I don't know for sure). If the captain is not involved in the situation then he/she will be calmer when talking to the ref.

One other thing might be to look at yourself/teammates/coach/spectators. If the ref has been copping crap from them all game, they will be pissed of and defensive and less likely to respond cooperatively to your question.

Btw before you next abuse the refs, think about this. If a ref is constantly abused, most likely he/she will eventually quit. This means that another ref (usually sub-standard) has to be pushed up to higher grades to fill the spot, usually before he/she is ready. This creates below standard refs who get abused more (and the cycle continues). Perhaps we have below standard refs because they all quit rather than stay around long enough to improve?

ha ha ur such a tool. u must be really crap if ur always whinging to the ref. yes they do make mistakes everyone does they are only human. all the good players where its in basketball or football or any sport just get over it. so maybe thats what u should do hey? ur not going to win trust me!

Thats the sort of attitude that the players and coaches have a problem with..

If you respond like that then you will get nowhere either.

Ex-Ref
It sounds to me like you might be a little quick to judge.

Do you know how many Senior Referee's in Adelaide are active in helping junior umpires.

Umpires do not alwways do it well but they certainly aim to do it well

Are you aware of the constant development where young officials are encouraged to communicate with coaches and players as per the guidelines which is short sharp converstation and encouraging the type of discusion which could prevent a Tech foul having to be called.

Of course sometimes players and coaches cross the line and make this much harder for young umpires.

I will except that all of this would be much easier if BSA would employ someone full time for umpires.
I understand there is currently an applicaiton for this position

This will help all grdes do things better including social basketball

Yes i have seen the senior referees coming out to evaluate juniors on fridays nights and i think its about time. Over the last 2 years that i was reffing (2007 & 2008) i would have only been evaluated maybe a handful of times and half of these were at aba so i think it is great that the young kids are finally getting feedback to help them develop..

I know that referees go out there and try their best but everyone has bed games and i accept this and having the evaluators out there is a crucial step to help them learn from these mistakes.

I am aware of the development that young officials are taught and maybe i was quick to judge this..

I think alot of the time the problem occurs with referees who have been in the system for a bit and should be starting to put names to faces and be able to have a conversation with coaches and players. There is nothing wrong with having a discussion with a coach as long as it doesnt interfere with the game.


Of course players and coaches step over the line and in those situations they need to be penalised for that however so many situations like this could have been avoided if there was communication, whether it be short and sharp (in an ideal world) or a quick explanation....

I do agree that someone needs to be employed full time to liase with umpires however i dont think one is enough. there needs to be a person at every stadium other than the uic or court supervisor or what ever their title is now. These people should liase with the evaluators and referees and visit different stadiums but unfortunately alot of people are involved in basketball as a hobby or for pocket money because it isnt really a long term career for many people.. Because of this it is unlikely to happen imo. But sending evaluators around the stadiums is a solid starting point and except that its not going to happen over night but something needs to happen so our referees can be competitive on a national level as well..

Cheers

Just a small nitpick #238100: when you're talking about referee ages, I think some common-sense needs to be applied, beyond "age has nothing to do with abilities". I've seen kids who can't have been older than 12 or 13 referee social games in the past, and on occasion they were basically useless because they were too intimidated/scared/inexperienced to call any fouls. If you have a 13yo ref who is mature enough to be assertive, then fine; if not, you're just asking for trouble allowing them to ref social (especially the lower grades, which can get very rough.)

Apart from that, I agree with most of your post.

Just want to add a shout-out to the Monday-night competition at the DHD (run by the Salvation Army). I don't know why this is the case, but the refs there are absolutely tops, far superior to any social competition I've played in during the last 10 years. They are generally consistent through the course of a game with what they call and don't call, and they are also willing to interact with players in a reasonable fashion. Good stuff.

Why should referees being accountable be done behind close doors? Let's say the NBL or a state league has an issue with a ref and they drop him for two weeks - why do the general public and players/clubs have to be kept in the dark?

I don't see why he/she becomes a target. Players cop their punishment in public, coaches too, and it's then up to the individual to make amends for their indiscretion. I don't see why refs need to be treated differently,or why their is the theory that making them accountable is going to discourage other people from becoming refs in the first place.

Oh dear, their = there.

I did use the NBL in my initial post. They certainly announce tribunal findings. I don't know how BSA works but its not like it would be the worlds biggest secret if they rubbed someone out for a couple of weeks.

i was watchin the game and aftr 3 quarters of ur whinging i would get frustrated and tell u to stop whinging as well. plus u hog the ball to much and get in a position were u get urself into trouble. referees shud not bail the player out 4 gettin into trouble. u had plenty of oppertunities to pass the ball but tried to go into 3 players instead.

aftr the game u went up to the referees to talk, they seemed approchable, and aftr sayin to them that u were goin 2 report them and that they cant insult u, u started to yell and swear at them. i think u shud control urself wen talkin to them, certianly aftr a game coz it is over and the heat shud be off of ur sholders.

238070, some novel ideas. What about refs rating coaches on their conduct each game. Charge a coaching registration fee and give "free coaching registration" to all but the 10 worst coaches rated by conduct? ;)

Great idea, as long as coaches have recriprocal voting rights for refs after each game.
Some refs really grate (not great) on you, then others seem insignificant. It is only after the game that you realise the 'insignificant' refs have done a great job in controlling the game and not let their egos and whistle power take over