I just can't see this VIC team thing working unless the Tigers agree to come back into the league..

IMO, South Dragons had an excellent marketing campaign and did everything they could to gain a fan base and get bums on seats. But even then, they were still nowhere near to making a profit at any stage. The only reason that they stayed afloat is because their owner had wads of cash to waste, right?

So then how can BA expect a whole lot of volunteer-based basketball organisations to be able to instantly band together and form a viable NBL team?

They won't have the instant millions to throw into building a brand. Even if through some superhuman feat they managed to gain enough sponsorship (and enough support from the state government) to have the funds necessary, can anyone realistically expect that these clubs will be able to form the needed committees and sub-committees to sort out what to do with the money? Especially seeing as these committees will undoubtedly be made up of delegates from each club, and each club will have their own agendas and ideas of what to do with available resources.

Not to mention that half of these people will probably have to be volunteers, folks who have been helping out at their clubs for years but dont really know how to run a business..

This just isn't going to happen!

You mean like what happened when the 36ers were formed from a bunch of volunteer based clubs. Yeah, I can see how that wouldn't win grassroots support and get bums on seats...

Dragons did some things right and I think a lot of the expenses on players and coaches are what elevated their brand quickly, but one cost they could've done without was the venue. Stabilising the roster expenditure and changing venues might've helped.

James Merlino is an A grade jerk. His comments slamming BA for going ahead without a team in Melbourne is an outrage. His efforts would be better served in working a solution with the Melbourne teams to get them into the competition instead of rubbishing the decision to go ahead without them. Its just another example of the arrogance in Victorian sport that its either their way or no way at all. Perhaps someone should remind him that there are 5 other states in Australia outside of Victoria. And before anyone makes a comment about 2 of them also lacking a team in the capital city, atleast they are represented regionally. Sengstock is doing his bit to try and entice a Melbourne team into the competition, Merlino might like to learn something from it.

All we have heard for the last 2 weeks is that Melbourne is the capital of basketball in Australia and now Astor is saying that a great team with great marketing was unable to "get bums on seats" maybe Melbourne isn't the great basketball state we have all been led to believe or maybe those two clubs were badly mismanaged

Dragons spent so much money on marketing it's not funny. I don't think there's a team who's put more work into it more than Dragons. Also need to remember Mark Cowan's a graphic designer himself.

A classic saying from a guy who was acknowledged as a marketing guru in the 80s goes like this - "marketing is what you do when your product's no good". While I don't entirely agree with that, there's more than a grain of truth in it. Good procucts sell themselves, once awareness is there. Bad products need a lot more hyperbole and pushing to maintain market share.

I reckon the Victorian basketball clubs in the NBL have struggled to get good crowd numbers because the victoian people don;t care about watching interstate clubs. The best crowds they get are for local derbies - 2 Victorian clubs playing each other - and perhaps the games against Sydney teams, then finals. Basically, the Victorians think all the best basketballers play in Victoria so why bother going to watch teams from other states. If I'm even half right, maybe having a Victorian team in the NBL is a bad idea.

That last anon is a idiot ..... Honestly, Melbourne has the largest participation of Junior basketball in aus... iS it the best??? well it depends on how you determine success. If National State titles defines success then Melbourne or Victoria is the most successful state/city in Australia. If success is defined by juniors continuing to play basketball as seniors then I don't think Melbourne is successful at all.

In Melb the participation numbers in U14 and U12 basketball are huge, but the participation numbers drop dramatically in 16s and 18s and seniors.

Some people would suggest this is normal, kids play other sports... They study...work etc...

If this was true then AFl junior participation numbers would decrease as players become older, when they don't because the afl clubs retain their players.

How is this possible??? Its because people give a crap about their footy clubs... they have a history and a culture worth protecting...They are not playing all year long so they don't become burnt out or sick of the sport.. They are passionate about the club being social and surviving and they want their players to stay at their clubs.

Basketball in Victoria is poorly ran.. The club system is designed to be elite... If you play for knox and your the fifth best play in a U14 ones team then your chances of playing ball for knox in the seabl are slim....

If you play social then your games have no relevance because their is little or no culture with your team... so when you finish playing you don't want to come down and watch how your team is going cause you don't care.

So if your 12years old love basketball the odds are by the time your old enough to buy tickets for the nbl your probably no longer passionately involved with a club and therefore you probably don't care about the nbl...

I think the problem with bball is greater then the NBL... I think the Victorians (where I play and coach VC)need to look at how poorly they retain players... The sport is not successful

Also as a dragons member I am not disappointed about them not playing... They cheated and so did the tigers.... I wish people would try to see the real big picture, basketball will take time to rebuild and hopefully the Vics don't have a team and begin to realize that they too need to review themselves

"Also as a dragons member I am not disappointed about them not playing... They cheated and so did the tigers.... I wish people would try to see the real big picture, basketball will take time to rebuild and hopefully the Vics don't have a team and begin to realize that they too need to review themselves."

WOW!!!
Can I say I found that poetry to read.
Thankyou for being honest with yourself and seeing the bigger picture as you say- it will take time.
Nobody wants a band-aid fix but everybody is complaining it's taking too long- make a choice!

HAHA... I find this site to be an honest bball site, so in turn I want to be honest on it....

iluv2ball.

2 problems with your theories. One is a fallacy, and that is the notion that AFL do not lose kids at 16's and 18's - they do, in large numbers. All sports do. ARL does, AFL does - they may not like to admit it.

For AFL this is hightened by the fact that AFL include Auskickers in their numbers - whereas the ASC and most other sports do not recognise this in official participation numbers. So when the AFL says we've got 500,000 people playing the game that includes a number of Auskickers - perhaps 150,000 thousand of them. A large majority of Auckickers do not go on and play club footy.

Regularly you will hear stories of local afl clubs struggling to field an u18 team.

Theory 2. the idea that the fifth best kid in U14's is unlikely to play SEABl. Well of course. thats just simple mathematics.

The SEABL side has 12 players - 2 imports so ten aussies. They'll sell one or two spots to someone else so eight. Of those eight some of them will have a long term career in seabl which as a club is what you want.

During a ten year period there are 10 U14 sides. They go through 16's and 18's and maybe 20's. if the fifth best kid in those sides was getting a run at Seabl level (and you assume the ones above him are all getting a run too) then you would be turning over your local player list in seabl every two years - and that means bumping out the 23-24 year old who has established the side.

I would argue that if your development stuff is working well, and you are retaining good long term players for your club, then perhaps one kid in every u14 side might be good enough to make the seabl list eventually - but even then the mathematics stands againts you.

It's always the mathematics... AFL does retain players through the club process... sure it loses junior players as the levels progress.... but the point I was trying to make is that the AFL is successful because of the process in place for Juniors to become seniors players in a club environment.

HO... do you honestly think it is purely a mathematical game??? What do think about the way players are developed (from a view that participation and staying in the sport)in our club environment?

I believe the picture for success is much larger then floating a new league.

iluv2ball.

Your right about the stuff AFL has transitioning from juniors to seniors. Your premise though was to indict Victorian Basketball and its structure. Basketball's juniors to seniors is poor partly because of the dominant mindset of the AIS (as good as the AIS is). IE: don't make the AIS - shit, better find another way of getting somewhere ...

I don't think its about maths, i'm explaining why the 5th best kid in the under 14's cannot reasonably expect to ever play seabl at knox, without an amazing change in his/her own development pathway or a growth spurt (a la bogut).

There are lots of other reasons to be critical of the Victorian Association and league structure - here are some:

- club basketball domestically is basically limited to juniors. As soon as you get to senior it becomes "social" - unlike a footy club where you can go cradle to the grave playing for one club in one competition
- this social senior competition pays the bills, but does not further development - someone termed it "jungle ball" - good call
- the VJBL, for all its strengths, does not grab the imagination at U18 level like TAC cup does for football
- the VJBL fails to hone the best against the best, allowing second, third and forth teams from clubs at championship level because its competition is so big at that level (20 or so teams)
- the move of seabl teams to the new d-league has split the best youth league teams - both bigv youth league and d-league are weaker than they could be as a result

but for all that, the fundamental premise struggles...basketballs retention, putting aside the elite athletes who choose a professional sport career, is as good as any sport. I could argue strongly in the Victoria case that the VJBL approach actually keeps a lot of players in the game.

I'd say that when you compare the Victorian club system to that of any other state, they are just about on par. It may seem that Victoria has a huge downturn of players when reaching into that U16/U18 age bracket, but thats mainly because there is such a huge number of younger kids in the first place.

If percentiles of each State were compared, Victoria is probably marginally better off then most, as there does exist more oppourtunity to play senior basketball in Victoria then in say NSW or SA.

To quote Iluv2ball's example, it is true that the 5th best U14 kid won't make it at a SEABL level. But its likely that probably 3/10 kids graduating from U18's will get themselves a spot in a decent Senior squad. If we'd compare this number to other states, i'd be suprised if the numbers were any better.. Vic's junior programs are chugging along just fine

But someone give a shout if im being presumptuous here?

Its all fine really.... but I am still concerned that we are missing the big picture..... I think I need to start a new topic and maybe we could discuss this further