dont complain here isaac bloody call the nbl to suss it out

The final scoreboard showed Brisbane 92 - Adelaide 91. The total of all the player's scores on that same scoreboard actually came to 94 Brisbane - 95 Adelaide. Checking the play-by-play section, Matthews had 10 points and not 12 and all other Brisbane player's scores matched, therefore 92 to Brisbane is confirmed. However, it was a different situation with Adelaide. The total of the player's individual scores came to 95. When checking all the Adelaide players scores in the play-by-play section, Forman only had 7 points and not 9. This gave Adelaide a total of 93. Where Oscar mentioned the 6.02 second time in the 3rd quarter where both Forman and Rychart scored, it seems neither of those scores counted.

Correction above to last sentence, where Oscar mentioned the 6.02 secs.............should read where Isaac mentioned the 6.02 secs..........

I thought it unusual that there was no quarter by quarter break down of scores on the box scores.

The box score that goes up on nbl.com.au is normally checked against the official score sheet first.

I've got an email in to Marc Howard at the NBL to get an answer. I've asked him to either answer my questions (which I copied the posts from here), or even post a response himself (he quite often posts on OzHoops)

Very dodgy when the quarter scores are suddenly not listed, but are for all the other games.

Bet you nothing comes of it though.

Anonymous, we are talking about a discrepancy involving 4 points not 2. Phil or Steve may have been watching the scoreboard closely in the last few minutes when the score was close but when the error appears to have occured halfway in the 3rd quarter, the score was 62-47 in Adelaide's favour. I think it would not have been as critical to watch the scoreboard then.

Right Isaac, that's it. USA will have to play Russia again. I hope Doug Collins' knees will hold out for the rematch 'cause if the scores in Brisbane aren't adding up, then maybe the Ruskies have struck again!

Bear this in mind - The live scores have never had the 'ability' to subtract points from an individual player. When points are attributed to a player in error, the live score picks it up. When they are then subtracted from the player, the live score does NOT pick it up. This has always been the case and if you go thru some old live scores, you will see that it happens QUITE regularly.

If you follow the live score thru, I think you'll find that what happened is this:

- Prior to the 6:02 moment in the third quarter, Forman had 5 pts and Rychart had 14 pts.

- A 2 pt basket was scored at 6:02 in the third quarter and attributed to Forman. The guys doing the scores thought they had made a mistake and subtracted the points from Forman, attributing them to Rychart. Due to Forman's subtracted points not being picked up, Forman showed 7 pts but had only scored 5. Rychart's score was 16 pts. The total score was correct: 62-47.

- At 3:49 in the third quarter, Egan was attributed two points for a Brisbane basket. The total score was still correct: 69-55.

- At the conclusion of the game Rychart had been attributed with 25 pts, Forman with 7, Matthews with 10 and Egan with 19.

- Following the game, presumably after consulting with the official scoresheet (?), it was found that two errors had been made. The basket at 6:02 in the third quarter was actually Forman's (not Rychart) and the basket at 3:49 in the third was actually Matthews' (not Egan). This often happens in the live scores where one or two baskets are corrected AFTER the end of the match. This always results in a discrepancy between the live score and the box score.

- Subsequently, two points were subtracted from Rychart and attributed to Forman. Bear in mind that Forman had already picked up these points due to the earlier error. This time Rychart's subtracted points were not picked up by the live score system, leaving Rychart with 25 points and Forman with 9 points. Both had picked up two points that they never actually scored.

- In the same manner, two points were subtracted from Egan and attributed to Matthews. Egan's subtracted points were not picked up by the live score system, leaving Matthews with 12 and Egan with 19. Egan had picked up two points that he never actually scored.

This corresponds with what was shown on the box score after the game. It is complicated to follow what happened but is consistent with what has happened on the live scores many times before and will happen many times more. The 'double' error with the Rychart/Forman basket makes it even harder to follow.

The live score software is quite obviously a piece of crap to say the least and I would have thought that it was a pretty blatant oversight to not include the ability for it to pick up subtracted points. As a software developer myself, I would have thought they could have scoped the needs of the system a little better.

I'm not convinced sc. For starters, there is still no quarter by quarter scores on the boxscores. That in itself is suspicious. It also appears to me that the way the live scoreboard works is that it only adds but not subtracts, however at the end of the game it will show where discrepancies lie. In this case it brought up the 6.02 min 3rd quarter error against Forman and the 3.49 min 3rd quarter error against Matthews. It did not mention Rychart. It seems neither Rychart nor Forman were given those 2 points remembering that the total players scores came to 95 and I still believe only 2 points had to come off. Also making an error between Rychart and Forman is not an excuse because they look alike from a distance. The scores are attributed to a player by his singlet number.

Another point I'd like to make is also that at the 6.02 min 3rd quarter mark showed a Farley assist in between Forman's & Rychart's basket. It quite clearly tells me that all this could not have happend at the same time and it is therefore possible that both those baskets were not made at the same time but an oversight at the time and picked up at a later time, i.e. when the next basket was made. It was just entered on the scoreboard at the same time.

I asked Oscar tonight about that play in the third quarter. He said that Rychart tipped in his missed shot.

From what statistics are the NBL online boxscores produced?

SC - I agree. The live scores are routinely wrong and I have NEVER watched a game where the scores haven't frozen on the final play. A reported $30,000 for an unfinished product? Or human error in operating the system? (Surely not for every game??)

EC - In previous live scores I have seen corrections made both immediately after an error and at the end of the quarter/game.

Note that I mentioned that 2 errors were made with the Adelaide scores. 2 points were originally given to Forman (and an assist to Willy). Immediately 2 points were also given to Rychart. 2 points were then given to Forman again at the end of the game. Which equates to six points all being given for the one basket. Four points would have also been subtracted (2 from Forman immediately after the basket and 2 from Rychart at the end of the game) but the live scores would not have picked that up. Those four points pushed our 'players total' to 95 points.

I agree that there is still a good question as to why the box scores do not show the quarter by quarter scores.

I'm not denying it is a possibility that there was an error but I think that from past experiences of seeing how the live scores work, this is the likely explanation.

Damn, I love a good conspiracy theory though!

Isaac - If that figure is anywhere near correct then the NBL should be doing one of two things. Either demanding a refund or at least demanding that the software be fixed. Surely there is some sort of maintenance agreement involved in their contract?

It sure as hell isn't human error. And if it is, the NBL should be noting supporters frustrations with the system and better educating the operators.

The system is causing more headaches for supporters than benefits. Most games I have followed using the live scores have left me either an incorrect final score, a frozen score with a minute to play or questions about dubious player statistics. I remember after the Sixers vs Hunter game Geordie Cullen was shown with 27 points but turned out to have only scored about 12!

I honestly believe that I could knock up a better product in my spare time in a couple of weeks. I would have been ashamed to have produced something of that quality as a first year uni student.

sc, there was not an additional 2 points to Forman at the end of the game, it merely repeated the listing in the 6.02 sec 3rd quarter time. Same with Matthews at the 3.49 sec. 2 points were not actually added to the score, it remained at 91-92 Brisbane way. If we're talking about the same 2 listings after the game finished, then neither Matthews or Forman's scores increased by 2.

The 36ers were very unlucky not to beat Brisbane. They were leading from the first basket until 35 seconds to play and while they didn't play awesome probably deserved to win.

I think the Bullets will be the first to say that they stole the game.

We were on the wrong end of some calls late in the game which really hurt. I'm not saying we lost the game cause of it because we probably should have been up by more than the 9 at the time.

The crucial play in the game was when we were up 9 and Rucker shot a 3, kicked his leg out and the umpire called a phantom foul on Rychart. Rucker hit all three foul shots making it a 6 point game.

On a later play Brett Maher was absolutely smashed on his arm when shooting a three (the whole crowd could hear the slap) but the umpires yelled play on and Mick Hill hit a 3 making it a 3 point game.

Farley then appeared to be fouled multiple times on a double team by the Bullets desperate to put Farley to the line to stop the clock. The umpires did not see a foul however and called a five second violation. Matthews got a huge dunk (the only good thing he did all night) to make our lead one.

Brisbane then got a stop, Rucker was fouled to stop a fast break lay-up with 35 seconds to play and he hit both foul shots.

The 36ers then got Forman a three that went in and out. We got the offensive rebound and kicked it to Maher who ran the remaining 20 seconds of the game out, did his customary step back jumper from 18 feet but unfortunately hit the back of the rim.

Very disappointing but still an exciting game. Credit Brisbane for not giving up.

Boti's report in the paper today lists Rychart with 25 and Forman with 5. He was at the game and would probably have based his stats on the boxscore printouts (I guess).

The NBl assures me the boxscore and result are correct.

Unfortunately, I didn;t get an answer as to why there is no q by q breakdown, or why the 4th quarter live stats actually replayed the third.

Predictable response from the league and there may (of course) be no issue here.

But still, why was the full boxscore originally there, but then modified to remove the quarter by quarter scores?

My guess is that their tinkering just didn't add up and had to be erased.

Yogee, did Marc Howard give any evidence to back up why the boxscores and results are correct? I have had enquiries with him in the past where all he does is agree with what's already happened and never gives any specifics. When I have argued about it, his final reply is that we will have to agree to disagree. This sort of response does not bring the truth out. If the boxscores are so correct, why does it show Rychart with 23 and Forman 7 when Boti also presumably gets his information from the same boxscores and he reports them as 25 for Rychart and 5 for Forman. The truth of the matter may well be that they are not sure what happened and have fudged the figures to make them add up. I wouldn't bet money on this, however a proper investigation and explanation is warranted here.

Unfortunately EC, whilst the league is pretty democratic, at the end of the day Marc is my boss, and arguing with him can get me pretty nowhere pretty quick.

With Boti also having been at the game, I think if there had been any real concerns about scores, either Phil or Steve would have been going on about them, and there would have been a major write up in The Tiser about it.

I know when we had stats issues at a WNBL game a few weeks back, the League office declined to mention the problems to anyone else (one of my colleagues in Perth questioned what happened to them, before she could speak to me)

Boti probably got the unofficial box score (in Adelaide at end of games we do a print run for both teams, media and anyone else, then check the stats off against the score sheet, then do a final print run, which also goes to both teams, and also a "package" gets sent to the NBL), hence why his scores dont match.

As a stats person, we have always been advised that Statistics are only done for the benefit of Coaches, Spectators & the Media.
They are not nor ever will be considered official by FIBA, hence the scoresheet is master. If there is a discrepancy between stats sheet & scoresheet then the stats are changed.
Yes, inputting statistics using "Cybersports" which then links with Live Stats is very frustrating, but remember the Live Stats is only for the entertainment of spectators unable to get to the game. Also, most NBL Clubs aren't as well off as Adelaide is with its statistics equipment, as we do have our own sponsor here (Thanks Paul)