Average Joe
Years ago
Should we be rating referees and evaluators ?
If yes, should they be public knowledge and possibly published and displayed in stadiums?
How often should we do ratings?
what would be the process used?
Who is willing to put pen to paper and list in order our top 30 refs?
russell coight
Years ago
yes - but they should randomly audit referees - anonymously
ie - out of the blue a referee coach - lands at a stadium and asks - coach, player, spectator and head ref to evaluate as well
but it must not be a kicking tool
Average Joe
Years ago
Why out of the blue and why by so many people at once?
What about the idea of them being public knowledge so referees can eye off the people above them and work hard to get higher up the ratings to get the better games?
russel coight
Years ago
keep them honest
biggest problem is - until we get the numbers up - there is no competition or pressure to perform
- only individuals own personal standards as to how hard they work
yogee
Years ago
Umm...why do coaches and players get to rate the refs...the refs dont get to rate the coaches and players.
Also....why should their ratings be made public? Do your work performance ratings get displayed for everyone else to see??
Does the coach put up a public list of what areas their players are weak in, and where there strengths are?
Does a club publish on their web site how good or bad their coach is performing (sure, the wins on the board is one indicator, but it doesnt show what their actual coaching skills are like..their inerpersonal skills, their dveleopment philosophies).
Ratings should be between the referee, the coach who is evaluating them, and the referee co-ordinator. No-one else.
Ratings should be visible but only to the referees that are on the list.
I can't see the benefit in allowing players, coaches or spectators to see this sort of list.
Makes for an easy insult unless you're at the top of the list.
There would be a current list made at the moment. This is made by the 'selectors' aka the ABL Evaluators.
undercover brother
Years ago
ref is a paid contributor to the game - the rest are volunteers.
remeber it was mentioned this would not be a kick butt situation
and only once evry 12 months or so
bull that others aren't paid
just HOW MANY players at abl level aren't paid
if you are talking juniors different story but coaches are usually paid in some small way
and also at that level what the ref's are paid is beyond a joke.
like it was said before coaches don't put up a list and rate his/her players etc
in a workplace situation a boss does not rate his workers and place all their personal details their rankings their praise their criticisms on the noticeboard
in a school / university situation although students are graded or marked the days of having names on a list so everyone could see who was good and who was a dunce or had failed have gone.
yogee
Years ago
I have performance ratings at work (based on sales, calls taken etc)...and your rating is a very closely guarded secret between me, my manager, and the rostering area (our rankings determine how close we get to our preferred shift).
There are privacy issues surrounding releasing a performance rating in public, unless that person discloses their own information.
Can't see too many refs coming on here saying "hey...i got rated #47!!"
Isaac
Years ago
Don't referees judge players with MVP votes in the ABL?
Just nitpicking!
but Isaac ref's don't walk around saying i just gave player x y and z votes 1, 2, 3
plus coaches a refs receive awards at the end of the year so they are voted on too
There is a ratings list for those referees who are involved in the State/National League. It's my understanding that it's primary use is for rostering of State League games and then it's secondary use is for the selection of National Appointments (ie Junior Nationals, NBL, WNBL, SEABL).
I feel that it is useful to know where you stand, I feel that we should know where we rank so that we can improve. So that we know whether we are close to the mark where you need to be to get SEABL games for example.
There are 3 State League Panels for Referees in SA. Each panel receives a different match payment, so it is also interesting to know how hard you need to work before you get paid more...
I think the list should be visible via the Chairman of the Selectors, however never published publicly. So a one-on-one interview could disclose where you are rated.
yogee
Years ago
Oh, I fully agree each individual ref should know where they are ranking against everyone else, in fact I would be very surprised if they arent advised of that already.
and u wonder y there aint so many referees anymore i saw how much it costs to register to be a referee! far out
mp
Years ago
It costs your employer to train you to the standard you need to be at to perform your work duties.
Therefore, it would be reasonable to assume that it would cost money to put on the training courses provided by BASA.
I for one have paid my money, because I have been waiting 8 years to do my Level 3 course, simply because there was no personnel available to run the courses.
$70 come on thats so much for just wanting to b a ref
Look at the registration again:
Just to register and not participate in development = $25
New referee wishing to do level "0" = $0
Level "0" ref wanting to do level "1" = $60
Level "1" ref wanting to do level "2" = $70
Level "2" ref wanting to do level "3" = $70
Level "3" ref = $25
The prices to pay are quite ridiculous especially considering the current pay that a ref is getting. Also most level "0" ref's that may wish to do level "1" are around the age of 14. Do you really expect a 14 year old who doesnt get a good pay as it is to pay $60 just so they can get an extra $1-2 per game. And with the new management just coming in how can you be sure that your money will pay off and they'll actually run the course for you?
I myself would have to pay $70 but I can't see that happening. How do you expect refs to improve yet make them pay to learn.
In a business environment if your employer wishes you to get more knowledge of your job the employer would pay for you to go to tafe for example. In this case it's a "you pay to learn to earn a few more dollars per game".
It's either drop the cost to register or raise the amount a ref receives. It would be understandable to pay for the development if the pay rates were reasonable and the increase per level was better than $1-$2 a game.
Another question I've wondered is why do we pay $25 a year for registration? What do we receive from it?
Shirt? No we pay for it.
Whistle? No we pay for it.
Pants? No we pay for them.
Shoes? No we pay for them.
Insurance? I've got private health.
So where is my $25 that I've been paying for the last multiple years going?
Anon
Years ago
Firstly, I agree that it is ridiculous that refs have to pay for their own development. This amount is at least a tax deduction for those claiming their ref money as income. But with the amount received in cash, how many do that?
Secondly, it is the only job in the world where you can be sooooo bad and receive numerous complaints and still keep your job. In any other environment you would get the sack.
I guess it's all "nature of the beast" stuff and we all know it is on the bottom of the priority list for the majority of people in decision making roles with basketball.
Moses Guthrie
Years ago
With the shirt, pants, whistle etc - is this stuff subsidised? Their should be a contribution paid, but it should be cheaper for "members".
yogee
Years ago
I know the registration fee does cover insurance, if a ref si injured in course of their duties, the insurance will cover all costs, including any lost income from their regular job.
I agree with the fact about ref costs. I know have a pair of shoes, 3 ref shirts, 2 whistsles, and one of the green coact to coast jackets (worth $70 alone) which I dont (or cant in some cases) use any where else.
Also not mentioned in ref costs are things like tyravel costs to get to the game, costs associated during the game (drinks, strappings, braces etc)...it just adds up.
And then we're expected to pay registration over top of everything else we've paid for. And remember shoes MUST BE BLACK. Not many basketball players wear black shoes to play in so for those people they must buy another pair of shoes that are comfy. They can cost between $150 - $300, ok it's your choice what shoes you buy and what cost you pay but we don't get anything back.
And like I said about the insurance that comes with the registration, I have private health insurance that covers me. So where's my registration money go? To other peoples insurance?
Average Joe
Years ago
Yogee,
Referee ratings are done and used in rostering officials for ABL Games and are looked at in consideration with other aspects such as Fitness and exam results for National Championships.
Referee ratings are currently done but kept quiet and referees do not know what their rating is.
Hence why I posted this topic for discussion.
Greg Love used to charge us $20 per session for the courses he ran. Level 2 and 3 would both take three sessions each ($60 per grade). On top of this the on-court examinations we forfeited our game payment.
If you want to improve, pay.
The money will go to sending referees to junior nationals and other interstate carnivals.
Don't resist change simply because it's change. The costs existed before, they are now less transparent.
Average Joe - if you are curious of your ranking/rating speak to the Chairman of the Selectors.
yogee
Years ago
Cool, thanks Joe. I am surprised, I would have thought it would have been an automatic thing, as part of the feedback process....if you know your #8 for example, you know you have areas to work on.
Maybe it's something the new referee co-ordinator will look at.
What they are avoiding is people who are ranked #21 but think they deserve to be #10...
Average Joe
Years ago
This was a list of top referees published by Wiseguy on 15/9/04.
Thanks Wiseguy!!
Geoff Weeks
Carolyn Tsakalos
Phil Haines
Andrew Filmer
Nathan Wieland
Wayne Maidment
Benn McDonald
John Clover
Amy Rorhlach
Tristan Graham
How do people think they stack up and can you add other deserving officials to this list?
Neal Bridgeman
shooter
Years ago
ok interesting topic!! from what i heard national championships are paid for by basketball australia so the $25 per head should not be going toward this, however ref's have always had to pay for the grading courses. The only difference this year is maybe they will actualy start running the courses and Refs can progress quicker??? I think that ref's should be told how well they are doing by there coaches
It's interesting that if you are only reffing social then you are exempt from the $25 but you do have to pay if you are reffing District. If the money goes towards insurance I don't get what the difference is? Are social refs not covered by insurance then?
shooter
Years ago
It is not just for insurance mate. It would go toward the Refs development, they are always saying there is no budget for Refs so I am sure that the $25 you pay would be your way of contributing towards the association and your fellow refs
to me it sounds like a small amount to pay for a whole year
shooter
Years ago
average jo, what do you think about publishing refs results to all refs
???
since you posted......
Average Joe
Years ago
Shooter,
I have no problems with publishing referee ratings for all refs to see.
I think this is what should be happening now instead of the cloak and dagger stuff which happens now where they are done but kept inhouse.
What's wrong with a bit of friendly competitive spirit anyway?
shooter
Years ago
on another simlar matter, what other refs are there that can ref Aba other than the ones mentioned. how many level 2 refs who could step up to give more depth in the Aba. I dont think there are enough good refs on the aba list... maybe they need to bring some back from retirment and pay them to do so
any one have any thoughts?
Social refs aren't exempt from the $25... well at least they shouldn't be. A fax was sent out by Rod I believe last year with Social payment sheet. Unregistered refs got paid less than registered ones. Well at least that's what the stadiums with Social ball SHOULD be following.
shooter
Years ago
great - all ref's need to stick together including social refs to build up money for education
time will tell with a new person in charge he will do things his way i am sure regardless of what Rod said or did not say...
shooter
Years ago
in regards to the above refs I think Geoff, Tsakalos, Wieland, Haines, Filmer, Mcdonald, Clover and Maidment are the most experienced going around.
beames was good in his day. the league needs more quality coming thru to push these guys though and also to help them because I think sometimes there is one of these guys refing with partners of a much lower standerd which makes the game inconcistent.
Other names in no particular order.
Neal Bridgeman
Paul Welbourn
Andrew Just
Nathan Durant
Josh Wilson-Smith
Daniel Hughes
Bruce Northcote
I can tell you for sure social refs at Wayville have been told they are exempt if they don't ref district.
If registration is for referee development then where has the money gone that we've paid every year since registering began?
Also, you will notice those referee's wishing to take courses and 'develop' are paying the extra money in their registration to do so.
Refereeing in SA is wholistic, there shouldn't be such a gap between Juniors, Seniors and Social.
After all, it's all basketball.
Does anyone care what rank/grade the ref is anyway?
I am a ref, I'm curious to know if anyone really cares what rating we have.
thedoctor
Years ago
It might be important in the sense that players will show some understanding toward lower ranked refs when a bad call (in the players' opinion) is made.
I would think it would be the opposite.
From player to referee "You're only ranked #55 - what would you know!"
Or vice versa, referee to player "I'm ranked #8, how about you go learn the rules!"
What is it's value.
Not to mention rankings are all just based on opinion.
Average Joe
Years ago
Surely,the idea of having us referees rated is so that the people rostering games are able to put the best officials on the best games!!!
Therefore, any idea of not having ratings is useless and ill conceived.
Nathan Wieland
Years ago
AJ,
To find out where you're rated ask Trevor.
thedoctor
Years ago
What is the referee rating system? Surely it's not like a WTA tennis ranking?
Paul Smith
Years ago
Trevor who?
If you mean Trevor Baker he only gives away boomerangs and homing pigeons. His integrity on ratings is impeccable
actually remember a few years back when the likes of hollander, headland, porter, tennosaar, reynolds retired or moved away we were left with young kids like mcdonald, haines, wieland, clover, haebich, filmer.
look at the ones you have lost in between the millers, glen tassicker, jemery brown, brendan kellaway, lachlan drew, robert hooper and michelle dyson.
the mcdonald, haines, filmer's of the world were helped along by more senior experience refs like roger mcmillan.
push the junior refs thru people do learn by experience and some do step up to the plate but don't expect perfection. even with two or there experienced ref's on a game people will see reason to bitch.
Bruce Northcote
Years ago
I have had the benefit of attending various referee development programs interstate. Talking to non-SA refs, they seemed surprised that we were not made aware of our individual rankings.
Personally I would appreciate the additional feedback that I would receive from being able to view the rankings of SA refs (and yes, rankings do exist).
However, that information MUST be kept confidential within the refereeing community, for all of the reasons listed by other people posting on this topic.
Regarding the registration fee structure: I will be paying the $70 to particiapte in the L3 course. Over the last few years there have been development squads (e.g. the 36'ers squad) for developing refs (in that case for refs intending to progress to L3), but little progress has been made in actually completing course work.
By collecting payment, the onus is on BASA to actually run the course, and get more highly qualified refs.
Just my $0.02.
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