What's the usual suggestion to combat this? Giving teams the option of shots or side ball if fouled (while not in the act of shooting) inside the last couple of minutes?

If a team is on 5 fouls and the clock is under 2 minutes in the last quarter. Any defensive foul commited in the back half of the court is 2 shots and possesion.

I think thats a bit harsh skip....maybe 1 shot and possesion.

I personally like the old days when you had the option of a foul shot or side ball

In regards to the endless timeouts - I see this as more of an issue in NBA where they have 24 sec time outs and normal ones - I trust we never go down that path over here

I think I find the most frustrating end-games are the ones where the result is pretty much assured, but the losing team still has that small window of opportunity (say 7-8 points with one minute to go) so that they begin deliberately fouling in the hope that the better team up until that point turns bad.

Deliberate fouling ruins it for me: if it was such a great basketball strategy teams would use it 48 minutes a game (granted, the 'Hack-a-Shaq' strategy is the exception that proves the rule).

But it's within the rules of the game - and I don't know if there are better rules for it out there.

Timeouts are bit easier to legislate: how about one timeout only, per team, in the last 2 minutes? (And only if the margin is less than, say, 10.)

I think it's unfair for umpires and scorers to have to keep an eye on the margin to allow time-outs etc. I think in juniors, timeouts are important in the last few minutes, especially with younger kids inexperienced in crunch time basketball. You'd expect adults and professionals to know what to do without a timeout every dead ball?

I don't mind the foul in the backcourt in last 2 minutes harsher penalties thing.

2 or 1 shot + possession would certainly stop the constant fouling late in the game.

Alternatively, maybe umpires can use the interpretation of "unsportsmanlike" foul more generally in close games, surely hack on an inbounds for no reason other than to stop clock may be interpreted as unsportsmanlike and result in the call? Of course, ref would cop a bath from the players for calling it!

Is it so bad that a team, down 7-8 with 60-90 seconds left should have a chance to win?

Perhaps the end-game in these situations is just inevitable?

I seem to remember years ago there was no unsportsmanlike foul - rather it was an intentional foul. Why was that change made? Surey that would give the ref more scope to call intentional fouls in the dying minutes for deliberate hacks etc etc

Isaac, why can't they play like they have for the preceding 46 minutes in order to do that? If you're good enough (and up until that point, you obviously haven't been if you're down by 7-8), then it should be achievable.

For 46 minutes, teams' mindsets on defense is preventing their opponent from scoring. Then in the last 2 minutes, in that 7-8 point range, the mindset changes full-circle to conceding scoring. They choose to play bad defence, knowing full well that the other team will probably score as a result. It just seems weird.

(Of course, it's the 'probably' that interests the losing team.)

How about incurring time penalties instead of shooting/possession penalties: ie losing team may choose to foul but it will cost them a shotclock's worth (24 seconds)?

Have to foul to stop the clock otherwise you're not going to make up 8 points in 60 seconds if the other team uses up all but 12 seconds on two consecutive plays.

I don't love the foulathons and time-outs, but it doesn't bother me that much.

Maybe in the last 2mins of the game if a foul is made to send someone to the line any of the 5 players on that team can shoot the two shots (except in shooting foul situations), will teams keep fouling if Brett Maher (or CJ or whoever) ends up taking every shot?

Huge gripe of mine. Blight on the game IMO. Have suggested this many times - one shot and possession. Only disadvantages the fouling team, and encourages honest, tough defence on every possession.

The other option is to call the deliberate hack what it really is - an intentional foul.

The easiest solution is to just eliminate those last two foul prone minutes from the game. Reduce the game from 48 minutes to 46. Problem solved.

Brilliant Rex!

I don't mind the fouling option, it exposes bad free throw shooters and people who can't handle pressure - I like that! It also gives the opposing team hope that they can still win the game. If you're down 7-8 with a couple of minutes left, arguably you have been around the mark. Winning by fouling from there and you've made some big shots in the clutch and the other team has choked. IMO they didn't deserve it if that's the case!

The only annoying thing is when you're coaching the next game and have to wait 10 minutes for a 45 seond game..

Funny enough I was only thinking and discussing this last night.

Firstly, in all my years of BBall, I think I have only ever seen multipel time outs, fouling players, scamming every second possible only work twice to get an upset win - yet every coach persists with it.

It rarely works, and makes the game ending rather boring.

Anyways - My solution - make the last 30 or 60 seconds of a game 'Hot' time - no time outs allowed, and fouls result in 2 shots plus possesion.

Or bring back the Intentional Foul Rule

thedoctor - first post - that would give the trailing team no chance at all. I like that they have some chance. Second post - bit subjective, though I would like to see the defender go for a legitimate steal, even if rougher than normal.

bozza - "hot time" is an interesting concept, but do you want to disallow timeouts when you're down by 2 and need time to draw up a play to try for the three? Shots and possession would seriously impact close games - I wonder if there'd be any at all?

Probably a stupid idea, but if part of the problem is the leading team wasting the clock, what about having a shortened shot clock (12-16 seconds?) in the last 1-2 minutes of a game?

Isaac - I dont think shortening the shot clock would still prevent the cheap intentional fouls.

I think the best idea would be to give the fouled team the option to take shots or take a side ball if within the last 2 minutes.
If it is deemed an intentional foul in the back half of the court then perhaps 1 or 2 shots with possesion.

I meant, shorten the shot clock as well as one of those other measures. That way, the trailing team isn't as likely to foul, but the leading team can't waste as much time.

what is a soft penis foul annoymous #166139 ?

Does it called in the WNBL as well?

#166139 is mine. For whatever reason my name had been wiped causing corres. came out as anon.

If it was shown that fouling in the last 2mins NEVER worked, then teams would stop using it, but it's shown that on occassion, it does work, so I say let teams use it .. keep the pressure on the team with the lead to make the free throws ...

I HATE the end game foul-a-thons. Last 36er v Kings home game went that way, & with 02:48 on the clock. WTF, in that time, Draper went from locked down, to = 2nd team high scorer.
Deliberate foul penalties should be re-introduced to bring back the fight-back spirit.

I think the prime example was the Knicks Clevland NBA game I watched several months back.

With one minute to go, there was a 10 point difference, and after 20 mins of watching time outs, foul shots, and hasty 3 second offences, I gave up and turned it off without seeing the end of the game.

If we are trying to market the NBL to FTA TV, we cannot have this nonsense occur every game, where game time can blow out so much, without OVer Time Occuring.

re: Thinking Cap Friday: improving end-games (#166114 | Grrr!)
The other option is to call the deliberate hack what it really is - an intentional foul.


Just on this point - change intentional to unsportsmanlike, and I agree with you.

The point The Doc is trying to make (I'm just nit-picking the intentional/unsportsmanlike issue), I actually agree with. IMO, if you're fouling to stop the clock on purpose, then you are violating the rules in an unsportsmanlike manner for your own gain. If a ref of calling a foul on a team which advantages the team committing the violation, then it really goes against the entire advantage/disadvantage principle, right?

IMO - call these unsportsmanlike fouls & get it over with. I hate teams (and the 6ers do it early sometimes) who are down 10 with 2-3 mins to go & start fouling. Ugh.

FWIW - I'd hazard a guess that I've seen twice the amount of games won from 7-12 down with 2-3 mins left by teams playing honest D & hitting tough shots, than I have teams who've gone the fouling route.

The only time this is a +EV tactic is if there's less than 2 posessions of gametime left (IE <48 seconds), and the margin is <6 points.

That's my thoughts, anyhow.

ten points down, 56secs to go .. and win ..

Intentional foul / unsportsmanlike foul - really pretty much the same thing.

The solution lies in the hands of the refs (that's why we're in trouble).

If there's no attempt to play the ball in the execution of the foul then by the rules of the game its an unsportsmanlike foul. 2 shots and possession.

If the refs would call this correctly it would be "Problem solvered."

Agreed Sector 7G. And Isaac - I'm not with you on giving the other team a chance for the sake of it. They are in with a chance because they are in the game.

I really hate the end of game fouls. Really hate. Really really hate.

On a lighter note - I'm seeing Vanilla Ice tomorrow.

T-Mac's effort in that last minute was absolutely spectacluar! THAT is what basketball is about folks!

Maybe in the last minute any DELIBERATE non shooting foul gives the opposition 1 shot and possession .
Or expanding on that the fouled team can have the choice of 3 shots or 1 shot and possession .
Some interesting scenarios should come up .

Surely this would be an easy one for the umpires to interpret , LTM . You would expect the interpretation to vigilant .

Also , in the last minute of quarters each team is only allowed 1 time out .

Just mentioned on radio , best of 5 sets like tennis,
would create more interest in the early parts of the game. Five x 8 min qtrs. best of five.