Yes. The coaches have heard which teams they were appointed.

Here are the Metro coaches:

http://www.basketballsa.com.au/fs_newsitem.asp?id=74844&orgID=9&Oname=Basketball+SA&O1c=6&O10c=12

I heard ROJO (Mike Rogers) has got a job. Fair enough to, he's done wonders with the Mavs 18's squad.

4?

Coaches announcment here.

My thoughts are that every single person there needs to be congratulated for putting their hand up and having a go. They give up time and energy to do the best that they can. Not one of them is perfect but they will be better for their experience. What they don't need is anonymous jibes that point out their weaknesses or failings in a public forum, positive reinforcement should be public but negative criticism out to be private. I would like to publicly commend each of these people who have made themselves available for years and given a great deal of effort. SAC has a great tradition and hopefully these people can grow and develop in that environment - well done to all and best of luck.

Can not beleive Matho has been shafted. Thats not like Country at all. I love it when Bald puts his best mates in.

Head Coach is hardly a shafting!

Doing 14s instead of 18s is a shafting. I hardly call the country champs in january a good replacement for Australian Nationals Champs in July. Mathos results have been solid. Could this be to help Eastern as well?

BG - and you know that Matho applied for 18's and not 14's? You know that after a decade of doing Nationals he doesn't want a reduced role this year? You know what milestones were set in the past few nationals for Matho and hence whether he was performing as a coach?

Don't really have time to reply ( I will later), but i would love to know what qualifications this new coach has in 18s has and also what has Bald done as a coach as well. Perhaps Matho did not get the job because he is not yes man to Bald?

BG - if you don't know the history of the new 18's coach, or Bald for that matter then who are you to question the decision? Anyone who's been around for a little while (and not just the blue and gold) would know of both their qualifications.

I look forward to your reply later, although i suspect you'll just sulk back into anonymity.

Eastern are being assisted becasue one of their coaches has misteriously been able to access the information of all the Albury players and has sent out letters to members of other cluibs regarding Eastern trials. And called them regarding SA Country entering a team intot the Metro competition.

And as for qualifications, Bald has a 13th and 9th as a head coach at Nationals. That doesn't really cut it as far as I am concerned.

I thought Matho was at F/ville! Still don't see the connection.

I believe that it will be taken to the presidents group. As well as concern over the Eastern President writing a letter to a West Adelaide player on an Eastern letterhead.

geez - matho has caused some ripples hasn't he!

It was only an invitation to trial as far as I am aware.
As with any invitation to any event, thank the sender for considering you and graciously decline the invitation as you are already have prior commitments.
Sender thanks you for your time - wishes you well, end of story.
Good old fashion common sense and courtesy. I really seriously doubt that there was any malice involved or intended with this issue
So many mountains made out of molehills

#151913, Are you serious? If this is true it seems consistent of a situation I dealt with previously.

Unscrupulous people/coaches that know better telling kids/parents falsities such as; we are setting up a SA Country team in the District competition. The kids/parents end up at Eastern thinking they are/will be playing SA Country because they don't know any better.

Well, not sure if this one is true.... if it is, one thing I can say for Eastern, at least they didn't get someone like Jacob Holmes or Richard Hill to contact kid's mobile phones and Committee members hound the parents of those kids.

Wow, going to Presidents meeting..... Woop D Dooop that will have a really big impact. I say, if this is true, expose these dodgy people here by posting a copy of the letter. This is the ideal forum to do this.....

Cat 74 Jason and any other country person that is writing on here,

Actually I have been around for long time and did not see any questions answered. I know the answers but was waiting for a reply. The answer is they have acheived nothing. As 'not seriously' has provided it seems that you guys are stooping to low tricks by writing to players asking them to come back to Eastern!! What a disgrace, especially when you are telling them if they do not move they will not make State. Don't deny it as there are letters floating around, so where are the answers for that? What kind of ethics is that? You people brag on here that Metro is a club, but really you need to look in your own backyard before you start putting another program down.

I am still waiting on the 18s coach resume to be posted on here. Surely you can shut me up putting down his acheivements. i am sure they are better than Mathos, so putting him to 14s is warranted.

I look forward to a reply with some actual facts!!

Yea forgotten values... interesting point....

I am trying to raise funds for my "Nigerian Uncle" and I have access to the kids to the details of the kids that play for Sturt. Might send a letter out to them all "Inviting them to donate" even though they have no affiliation with my Nigerian Uncle but because its just an invitation its all good. I'm sure I will get some naive suckers from Sturt that donate money for my Uncle.

What a disgrace, especially when you are telling them if they do not move they will not make State. Don't deny it as there are letters floating around, so where are the answers for that?

I am still waiting on the 18s coach resume to be posted on here.

i am sure they are better than Mathos, so putting him to 14s is warranted.

did not see any questions answered.

Don't try to justify it by saying everybody does it. You have no proof. The letters are there in hard copy. If a Metro club wrote to all SA Ccountry players or all SA Metro players, all hell would break loose. There is no way to justify this, it is wrong, wrong, wrong! The sad part is some players buy it and end up worse off at the end of the day. That's the really sad part.

This act:

- means players will contact the clubs sending these letters. In my experience with Eastern they hound kids and their parents that make contact with them, including nasty phone call. Like, "whatever you do don't speak to your coach until you sit down with us first". "Your chances of playing SACountry are better if you are at Eastern". Then the last one after half a dozen or so calls "I need you to make a decision now this has gone on for too long".

This gives kids an easy way out. It gives clubs that cant develop players an easy way out. It creates one upmanaship amongst clubs. It damages kids that begin to think they will play professional basketball when its unlikely they will.

It does nothing to develop the sport as club's focus moves from growing it to recruiting from other clubs.

More importantly: Its disgraceful. Its illegal under new privacy laws. IE you cannot use peoples private information for purposes not divulged to them when they provided that information. If my kid got this letter I was sue Eastern and make a nice little bit of money.

http://privacy.gov.au/publications/npps01.html

Gee SA Country people have gone quiet haven't they?

BG - you are easily confused. This thread has moved from a 'what does everyone think about the coaches' topic where you were trying to seek justification for matho's move to 14's into a club bashing thread.

Don't try to take a hollow victory on the back of a topic change.

Have you found that letter you mentioned of a club telling a player that unless they play for them they won't make state?

William,

The letters do not state that. The letters were sent to SA Country players currently playing for other district clubs. As a separate but still related issue, some players have been TOLD (not written to) that their chances of playing State are increased by playing at Mavs rather than their current district club.

Don't tell BG that.

That's a district issue, not a SAC coach selection issue. Start your own thread to club bash.

BG - you've gone quiet, haven't you!

If by promotion you mean dismissed, then sure, that's what i've done.

Slug.

Right her Willaim you knob. I am also waiting on the 18 coaches resume to be posted on here. I know that he is from Whyalla, and he is Bald's best buddy and he was mathos assistant but apart from that it pretty thin. Also see if you can answer this question. If matho wanted a break from coaching State and wanted a rest from travelling down here all the time, Why is he coaching the Under 16s at Forestville. He is even more talented than i thought being the head coach and coaching from his home. So making patheitc excuses that he needed a break and did not apply for the job does not wash with me.

Here's a story for you that has been re emphasized above. Country player comes down to play for local club. Chooses not to play for Eastern because when he comes down he will stay with his grandparents because they live right next to the stadium of this club. he made reserve the past year but told if he does not play at Eastern he will not make State. Funny enough he doesn't and quits basketball all together and now plays football. You guys do more harm to the sport than you think. You dare to come on here and bag the metro program (which I know has it faults), but at least they do not have coaches telling players to go and play at certain clubs to help their chances at State.

I am curious to know who are the eastern div 1 coaches next season? The letter regarding players moving I am sure will never surface, as it does not exist, because as thick as some of you are you would not be dumb enough to send a letter like that out, but if you asked many players whether the suggestion of playing at eastern or no State has happended i am sure there would be plenty of stories.

The problem as I see it is that the coach of the team is a SAC coach. And that begs the question as too how he managed to get the names and addresses of all the country players from other clubs.

And considering players are being told that their chances of playing State increase if they play at Mavs, where is this direction coming from?

Also see if you can answer this question. If matho wanted a break from coaching State and wanted a rest from travelling down here all the time, Why is he coaching the Under 16s at Forestville.

You are a tool William. You make the assumption that I am with Forestville (I might, i might not),and then to make dick of yourself again you say that I do not know whether matho is coaching in 8 months? What Div 1 coach puts his/her hand up to coach but says "I might not know what i am doing in 8 months so I may not be doing it after this time".I mean Forestville either are putting temp coach in for the summer season or you once agan are full of it. Where's this resume of the coach that is replacing him, have i already mentioned all of his acheivemnts? Also do we know the Eastern Div 1 coaches? Have they been announced? It also seems you pick and choose what you reply to in an discussion because you have no reply to certain questions, so I can not be bothered replying to you again.

so I can not be bothered replying to you again.

"Bald Groupie"

Let me start by saying that it is clear to me that you have no more idea than a goat.

If you really wanna see this guys resume, ask him. If you really wanna know the answers to your questions, ask the appropriate people rather than posting crap here.

Lastly, stop posting rubbish just because you think it sounds good.

Anon - *sigh* read point 1.
I think offering to eat my shoe is a fairly strong rejection!

Slug.

The reason that this is a club issue is due to Mavs and country coaches telling players that they have a greater chance of making State is they play for Mavs.

Obviously a Forestville coach like Matho is not going to do that. But somebody from Whyalla who has a bunch of their kids now playing for Mavs is.

So it looks like SA Country is using its State appointments to assist a country club playing in a metro competition. As well as rewarding those coaches who push their kids to the Mavs.

i think there is a good mix of both old and new in the Coaching line up for 08 Country Cup.

All the 'HATERS' need to build a bridge and get the F**K over it!

The result over the past 2 years are not anywhere as good as when Dean Kinsman was in the position. Therefore are you saying he should be sacked?

And how do the KPI's rate when "blooding" coaches?

And if you knew anything about the history of SA Country you would know that they have never sacked somebody for not reaching their KPI's.

It is a boys club that looks after their own. If anybody complained to SA Country about any of their employee's, just watch how quickly they are left out of teams.

So explain why a country coach is going around ringing players and telling them it is their best interests to move to Mavs?
Explain why a coach that has just sent a number of players to Mavs, and who is a good mate of JB's has been given a head coaching position from out of the blue?
Explain why a West Adelaide country player has received a letter from a the President of Eastern asking him to join them with a follo up phone call?

"a country coach is going around ringing players and telling them it is their best interests to move to Mavs?"
Could you be any more general? What coach, what age, are they a coach a mavs? Seems like a mavs bash

"mate of JB's has been given a head coaching position from out of the blue?"
Who is that? Not one of the head coaching positions awarded i would consider out of the blue. All the head coaches have been in the SAC program for a number of years and have all made significant contributions to their local associations. Out of the blue for you as a metro person maybe, not for those involved in SAC ball.

"Explain why a West Adelaide country player has received a letter from a the President of Eastern "
If that's true, then surely it's allowed. BSA would take action otherwise (unless it's just a rumour).

"The result over the past 2 years are not anywhere as good as when Dean Kinsman was in the position. "
Garbage. What have been the results of the 14's Boys and Girls at Albury over the past two years? Post them and tell me a 2 year spell under Kinsman that had better results.

William 20

You have not answered these questions

So explain why a country coach is going around ringing players and telling them it is their best interests to move to Mavs?

Explain why a coach that has just sent a number of players to Mavs, and who is a good mate of JB's has been given a head coaching position from out of the blue?

Explain why a West Adelaide country player has received a letter from a the President of Eastern asking him to join them with a follo up phone call?

And a question from me

If these letters have been written as forgotten values? has stated to be true how did they get the information about the players. Last time I checked I cant just go and get this information from BSA so therefore where did it come from?

I can be assured I receive a dismissive response from william

You still haven't answered the questions.

Avoiding answering them is as good as admitting them.

i dont belong to any club sorry to burst any illusions
Who would have thought my very general off-the-cuff comment on social etiquette would be still talked about - that's all it was folks a very GENERAL OBSERVATION - you have way too much time on your hands to have read that much into it......?

fv,
Dont make observations on things you dont understand.


Mavs recruit all the players you want, recruiting and developing players is what clubs are supposed to do.
It strengthens the competition.

POACING/ directly contacting OTHER CLUBS players is un-ethical and lazy. It shows lack of morals, respect for other coaches. And highlights the weaknesses in development at your own club.

This letter to a West kid DID occur, luckily the kid is loyal and respectful of the time West have spent developing him, and is a solid SAC player.

If he was a borderline SAC player it would be different. Because we know borderline SAC players from metro clubs have a hard time making squads compared to bordeline Mavs juniors.

re: country coaches , I congratulate everyone on their appointments and wish them the best in 08.

Mavs: You need some ethics and quickly before the metro clubs get together and kick you out of the metro competition.
You have a HUGE talent pool these days, make these kids better. Don't go after the best country players at the member clubs.

William 20, you need a laxitive because u are so full of s@*t.

LG -

Keep in mind i don't have and haven't for a number of years had any affliation or role (be it coaching or otherwise) at any district club, but to answer you'r questions:

Q1 - perhaps it's because Mavs are a struggling club and they would get more opportunties there?
If i was looking at selecting a team in 6 months time, i'd want the potential kids playing as much ball, and getting as many opportunities as possible.

Q2 - "from out of the blue?". I've already answered this question, the post by Cat 95 was me.

Q3 - That's a district league issue, and something that shouldn't even be in this thread. Start another thread about that, it sounds like an issue that deserves it!

Q4 - (your question), SAC will not give out players details, but in anything whether it's sport, business or life, if you ask the right people the right questions you'll get the right answers. I'm sure that kid plays with some kids from at Mavs, so perhaps the pres asked kids at his club for his details. Either way, that (IMO) is for another thread.

of course it's going to be dismissive, it's all rubbish.

Now where's Bald Groupie hiding....?

Now William is talkng to himself by changing his alias half way through a discussion? Is this guy for real?

SW - they were all responses to NSC. Nice try though.
You see that "Random name" above the title, it allows posts to be read, apologies for trying to allow my opinion to be heard. There are quite a few anon posts in here, and I for one don't bother opening them if the poster can't be bothered putting a name.

Where has Bald Groupie gone?

There are quite a few anon posts in here, and I for one don't bother opening them if the poster can't be bothered putting a name.


C'mon now William, we all know that's not true. For example, you answered this anon with:


Anon - *sigh* read point 1.
I think offering to eat my shoe is a fairly strong rejection!

Slug.



So we all know you are pretty much full of it.
If you condone what Eastern have done, why don't you just admit it? You're answers seem to indicate that.
Or is it that you'll now try and ignore it because you've been exposed?

lol Great reply no morals. You just showed the tool that he is.

Q1 - perhaps it's because Mavs are a struggling club and they would get more opportunties there?
If i was looking at selecting a team in 6 months time, i'd want the potential kids playing as much ball, and getting as many opportunities as possible.

In whose opinion would they get better opportunities?

Q2 - "from out of the blue?". I've already answered this question, the post by Cat 95 was me.

Q3 - That's a district league issue, and something that shouldn't even be in this thread. Start another thread about that, it sounds like an issue that deserves it!

Where this kind of act happens it should be in every thread. It effects basketball, it effects kids, it effects coaches. Its downright disgraceful

Q4 - (your question), SAC will not give out players details, but in anything whether it's sport, business or life, if you ask the right people the right questions you'll get the right answers. I'm sure that kid plays with some kids from at Mavs, so perhaps the pres asked kids at his club for his details. Either way, that (IMO) is for another thread.

You are kidding aren't you about asking the right people you will get the right answers??? These people that were supposedly asked are a disgrace. Just incase you're serious I doubt it's even legal




William20 everything you are saying to justify these actions is a disgrace. If players were sent junk mail from Eastern from a mailing list that players gave as part of their involvement in SA Country I cannot see how this would breach current privacy laws, not to mention the damage it does to players and basketball in SA.

i don't care what district clubs do. that's not the point of discussion. battle that out somewhere else with someone who cares.

Yes, i opened that post and another (#152009). Both were pointed out to me and they were personal attacks that warranted a response. So yes, i read those two. well done. Have a gold star.

Still no Bald Groupie ... that must be his way of admitting defeat.

Q1 - you asked a general question about a club everyone loves to bag. Why wouldn't i make that assumption? And it was just that, i've got no idea!

There are four clubs that i've (directly) heard recommended to SAC players looking to play district being Norwood, F/Ville, Sturt and Eastern.

Q2 - I'm glad we've finally found some common ground on my intial foray into this discussion.

Q3 - sure it's a big issue, probably deserved of it's own thread (is it just me, or do i sound like a broken record?)

Q4 - No i'm not kidding. If you own a cafe and your kid comes home from school saying 'my friend tommy's dad sells coffee machines' and it just so happens your coffee machine broke, your going to say, 'son, what's tommy's number'. Likewise in basketball, your daughter plays district and also church league with some of her friends from school. Your district team is down on numbers so you ask your daughters friends parents what sophie's number is coz she's 6'2.

And calling yourself the jury doesn't add a single ounce of weight to anything you say. It's a name, just like william, or Bald Groupie - who's still scrambling to find that letter.

kjxfnvkjdnfv - i've never said once they are clean. I've said multiple times i don't care. If the accusations on here are true, i think it's pretty obvious they are not.

"If SAC did give out personal information of its players" - SAC doesn't give out personal information.

But you ask you kid if he/she knows the players in the team. Or you've got a kid who regularly plays with another chances are you get to know their parents. That's where it comes back to asking the right people the right questions. So stop jumping to conclusions about 'giving out lists' or 'providing personal information'. It's incorrect and potentially harmful to this sport.

William 20

How do you know that SAC coaches have not used their Albury lists given to them by SAC? Especially considering the number of players that have been approached.

Trying to hide behind a 'friend of a friend' answer is just plain pathetic. Everybody knows it's happening and expect major problems to follow for Eastern.

kjxfnvkjdnfv
Unfortunately, any country player that did use legal action would kiss any chance of evry making State every again. So once again Eastern just need to deny that it happens and they will get off scott free.

I think that other club should get together and refuse to play against Eastern. Let them take their country team and go play in a country competition.

Exactly my point. People from Eastern have got a list and have on mass sent letters out to country players telling them that if you play for Eastern you will make SA Country. As Eastern are looking to put a SA country team into the competition.

My opinion is that they should not be allowed to play in the competition and that they should go play in a country comeptition.

If not all clubs should refuse to play against them. Lets see how well their players progress then.

No i'm not kidding. If you own a cafe and your kid comes home from school saying 'my friend tommy's dad sells coffee machines' and it just so happens your coffee machine broke, your going to say, 'son, what's tommy's number'.

Wiliam, it's NOTHING like that at all. It's more like:
If you own a cafe and your kid comes home from school saying 'my friend tommy's dad owns a cafe too' and it just so happens your coffee machine broke, you going and trying to STEAL that cafe's coffee machine.

It doesn't increase numbers in the competition, it just redistributes them. It may make one club (whoever it be) slightly stronger, but at the expense of someone else who has done nothing wrong.

Likewise in basketball, your daughter plays district and also church league with some of her friends from school. Your district team is down on numbers so you ask your daughters friends parents what sophie's number is coz she's 6'2.

William, I've no problem with this if Sophie doesn't currently play for another club (neither does anyone else). Matter of fact, it's great because it introduces another player to district basketball. The problem is, Eastern don't care that Sophie ALREADY plays for West (eg). Which shows no respect to that club or the competition as a whole.

i don't care what district clubs do.

If that is true, you don't really care about basketball in this state at all. A competition that develops players for ALL of SA basketball, both metro and country.

As for people loving to bag Eastern, far from it. Norwood got drilled for something similar earlier this year. I vaguely remember Sturt and maybe Forestville also getting bagged for it? It's the conduct of the club, not the name.

I don't se why you keep replying to this guy as it is obvious he has no idea. He no interest in Basketball or the clubs but seems to have all the answers. he reads what he wants to and only answers what he wants to and ignores the real questions. Let the clubs follow up on the issues and see what happens.

Don't be bitter because you were exposed as being clueless. I've answered every one of your 'claims', and it's you that i had the issue with in the first place.

Oh, and have you found that letter yet?

William 20

More than happy to so long as you are able to put your real name to your posts.

happy to what?

What goes around comes around and mavericks have suffered from poaching big time

So anon, you are agreeing the Eastern are in fact poaching? But it's okay because someone else has done it?
Pretty flimsy.

William 20

Happy to post the copy of the letter that I have, if you are happy to put your real name to your posts.

you are telling them if they do not move they will not make State. Don't deny it as there are letters floating around

"What goes around comes around and mavericks have suffered from poaching big time"

Employing somebody that doesn't do any development hence having kids leave and then sacking them and having half your club move does not mean clubs have poached from you.

I hope so and I hope from your club


I guess this shows Eastern's complete lack of respect for both the competition and every other club in it.

No wonder people bag them.

yup. because one bad seed will spoil the crop. No wonder everyone loves an annonymous snipper.

Well this is a very amusing thread; more please.

1) Do we really think some parent is actually going to take the time and the money to actually SUE SAC? I guess them same parents are feverishly looking over the details of all their junk emails to see if they can find someone to sue as well? I think not! Reality check people; and di some earlier post mention tif it was there information that had been given out they would sue and make some money out of it? Goodluck with that one fella!

2) Eastern have always been usless, let them poach away. To all the kids from other clubs who have moved their game to Mt Barker, more power to you, but enjoy the trip girls & boys. If you think the trip from say....Kadina to Adelaide (hey its just hypothetical, dont read anything into the location please)is a big one, just wait untill you have to add that little bit extra to gas guzzle up the hill to that hole they call a stadium; it actually makes marion look like a palace.

P.S.

All you font changers are freekin' amazing!

THighs, you need to read the privacy act. Using minors private information in this way is a disgrace. It wasn't the same as junk mail you twit its more about sharing information when the provider of that information didn't consent and when it involves minors its more serious.

How is all of this different to Metro coach's going along to SAC trials and approaching kids to go play at their metro clubs?
If the family is happy where they are than they are not going to leave.But if they arent happy than they will pick somewhere where they believe their kid will get a better opportunity.

As a former coach at Eastern, and one that will never go back there, I believe it is extremely ordinary that if the claims are true that if u play for Mavs you will make state. That is crap! If you are the one saying this than stop coaching and choose another career!

Lets get back to discussing the coaches and talk about some of the other appointments??????

No Idea, what an apt name.

Maybe you want to be the knight in shining armour that takes on this noble cause in the courts?

I am in no way saying what was done is right or even slightly legal.

My view is the parent who decides to take on this "injustice" and seek vengeance through the judicial system would have to have a cart load of money, and plenty of time on their hands.

The matter is so small and insignificant that the process and any out come would be significantly out weighed by the time taken to pursue such a small matter; while the potential to lose and be stuck with paying your own and the defendants court costs could be financially life changing, compared with what you could expect to be awarded if you are lucky enough to win.

And that is all providing the Judge didn't throw out the case and chastise you for wasting the courts time before the "trial of the millennium" even started!

There are no contracts between "kids" (key word here people, KIDS) and clubs & God forbid that ever happens. So just let the children play for who ever they damn well please.

So if you have the time, money and indignant disposition to be so fraught with anger that you simply must take the receiving of a letter from someone or some organization that you did not give your personal details to, then go for it!

Just a thought; mid week training for the Mavs U16 div 1 girls could now be potentially held in the local telephone box, judging by all the country kids that are going to be "flocking" there in droves.

i am confused - who is the author of these letters ?

where are teh sa country coaches ?

aren't 2 of the girls coaches at forestville and the boys ? at mavs ??

so why create these letters ?

coach,

Have you no idea.

The difference is that if a metro club approaches a kid from Vitor Harbour, they are approaching a player and giving them an opportunity that might otherwide not be available to them. Playing in the highest level competition in the state on a weekly basis. As well as attending State and National Tournaments. And the player can still play for their local association in the SAC competitions.

What Eastern have done, is target kids from other clubs and told them that they have a greater chance of making State teams.

Massively different, massively unethical. I am sure that the clubs will not take it lying down and will react against Eastern.

?

1/ The author of the letters was the Eastern President.

2/ The SAC coaches are generally from country area's or Mav's.

3/ No, the U18 coach got sacked.

4/ To poach from other clubs because they can't develop players from their own backyard.

SA Country have been trying to claim that the development that clubs put into players is all done at SA Country level. Which is obviously not true because no SA Country player has made it to the AIS in recent memory without playing for a District club.

WHat they are trying to do is have Eastern recruit all the best players after other clubs have develop them, and then claim that they have done all the work.

eastern are desperate for sure.

cant say I have missed going there since they have sagged.

they should be getting leaflets into all those new housing developments in the hills and getting the u10s and aussie hoops / school ball etc

how can the eastern pres tell who will be in sa country teams?

that is like norwood pres maileing everyone cause they have the majority of state coaches ???