that wont happen till around the end of the 3rd quater and 4th quater maybe if u stayed in the game long enough u would know!

As a big man myself, I feel that you are obviously not using the correct big man techniques. Faking, Wailing, throwing your hands around, and best of all.... Grunting!
Please take this free advice.

Bags takes it to the hoop!!!!!

Yes i think that its true, but you have to have physical contact to get front position in the post, thats how bug men are. You can slash arm and fake but there is still plenty of contact when doing that. J bags if you did play in the post full time you would know we are talking bout.

i was there and this man had 1 reall foul for the game, maybe 2. the forth was for a box out that had a fore arm on the chest of a smaller player who made a whole lot of noise. then he got his fifth for a tech straight after. the tech was prob the worst foul he had for the game. this was before half time as well. umpires have to let the big men play. if the get tangled or start throwing punches etc call a foul. but the has to be contact.

if ya come to the powerhouse, as a visiting team, expect a good nite with the umpires. i dont want them to favour us or anything, just for a fair go.

by the way, im not bagging the club in anyway shape or form, just the umpires. hopefully that keeps the powers that b at bay.

How easy it is to blame the refs.

So refs should wait until punches are thrown to call fouls??

It's always that they call too little or too much.Anyone would think they have to be perfect. And always it comes from the critics that have never reffed and couldnt possibly understand the game from a refs point of view.

Refs call what they are trained to do. If contact between the big guys proves to be a disadvantage then a foul will be called just like anywhere else on the court. If you want physicality I suggest football.

I'd say refs are harsher on the guards anyway. I've seen a helluvalot more 'soft' guard fouls on the guy guarding the PG down the court when he makes good position but still gets called for a block or push in my time, quite a few per game. Most post tussles I see at least get a warning or two before they get picked up on. And I played in all 5 positions up until U18s where my natural height abilities (ie lack of it) saw me never in the 4 or 5 again :D

Big Men "toughen up" in the games I referee. Guards don't handcheck, or try to steal everytime down the court, you don't get fouls. Big men, "Body UP" if you listen to me or most referees, you will be fine. Arms or hands in the post, near automatic foul. Play hard, not for the whistle..... isnt that right ACADEMY :D

Umpires hate big guys! Couldn't agree more. Maybe its small man symdrome (you don't see many really tall umpires) Maybe its the fact that they were guards when they played. But at ABL level guards and 36ers are endangered species!

Nathan,

So are you stating that if a guard hits a big guy on a shot it is always called as a foul? IMO the big players get the raw end of the deal when it comes to advantage / disadvantage because guards like yourself think that they can handle the contact because they are bigger and stronger.

I don't think refs hate big men. But, I do think sometimes refs won't call clear fouls on a guy who is bigger and stronger than everybody else on the court.

It might be a sub-concious thing, whereby the ref thinks because the player is so much bigger, he can handle more contact. I have seen this happen for a whole season to a teammate of mine. It results in missed shots, missed rebounds etc. It negates the advantage that size and strength is supposed to give.

I think it's fair to say that different positions on the Court are umpired differently (warnings for post battles for big men vs warnings for handchecks for guards). This os OK. It is called understanding the game. More umpires should do it. The problem arises when the umpiring differs end to end, between the same positions. If one centre/PF is obviously bigger and stronger and is getting good position, and all the other guy can do is foul and hack, then bad luck. Every foul should be called if it is disadvantaging the bigger guy, especially on a shot attempt. The refs shouldn't try to even up the game. Just call it equally.

I agree with J BAgs. Grunts and exagerated movements help draw calls.

And Jarachi, saying that if you don't ref yourself, you can't criticise is like saying if you aren't the President of the United States you can't think George Dubbya is a tosser!

Yes I would call a hit on a big mans shot Phadrues. Most people I'm sure would call that as well. Not to sound arrogant or anything, but some of the big guys in the league and in juniors, need to really read and know the rules in which they are allowed to play by in the post (arm bars, verticality etc).

Best ref for umpiring big men: Neil Bridgemann. No negative comments about other aspects lets keep it positive.

thedoctor,

Referee's view the game differently to those that do not ref, just as coaches might in respect to parents. Bias is a great thing. If you have gone from being a player to a ref I'm sure most would agree its amazing how differently you do see the game.

"bias is a great thing" - I disagree with that! Hindsight is a great thing. Bias is not.

I think you'll find that 99.99% of referees really aren't bias. It gets tough when some referees (and this is true in Juniors and Seniors) referee a team many times over a period of time, and as 'reading the game' is such a big part of officiating basketball, if you can 'read' one team better than the other, it can be perceived as bias (both ways... for, and against the familiar team). I genuinely believe that the overwhelming majority of referees are there to ref the game as fairly as possible.

some good points posted guys but for the referee backers and referees, dont be so defensive. Players have to put up with criticism all the time when they play bad, so any negativity you might get, deal with it, everyone should be open to criticism. Don't think your above the game.

Hey Big Men. Make the refs a non-factor, and shoot only fading sky hooks from outside the key.

By all means be open to criticism but the only criticism referee's should listen to is that from those that know what they're talking about (well... presumably!) like UIC's, Evaluators etc. Just as players should only listen to their coaches.

jirachi are u one of those umpires that cant communicate, have a laugh and assert yourself in a way that is fun out there on the court so u dish out techs, be a prick and then come in a forum like this to get your own back?

U should learn off these guys like nathan durant, hainesie and even bridgemann of late and have some fun, relax and enjoy the game whether ur a ref, player, coach or all of the above. just relax, its all good jirachi!

Jirachi, the best refing is when your not even noticed. if there is a obvious foul call it. but if not let it go. the refing on friday was extreamly bad. every 30 seconds just about the whistle went. it was shocking. it wasnt like it was a ruff and tuff game either. the fouls were weak and petty.

The best players are those that concentrate on their own game instead of the reffing.

Lots of good points being made.

The best players don't worry about refs, but sometimes even the best players can get frustrated when its the refs deciding the character of a game, not the players.

I agree with Take Luck. You know the refs have been good when you haven't thought about them. There are too many refs who become a factor in the game, when they should not be.

The best refs are former players, who explain calls when questioned instead of handing out T's all day. But in saying that, if a warning has been given, then by all means, hit 'em with a T. This no tolerance rule is not realistic. You have to allow for the high emotions the game brings.

And Jirachi, while I'm still paying $8 a game to play, and you're getting paid to ref, I'll defend my right to have an opinion on the reffing.

You and other refs comment on all things 'ball on this forum, including playing. No one questions your right to an opinion on the Sixers, or ABL players, because your opinion is valid. If you have been around 'ball for long enough, you are entitled to have an opinion on reffing.

good post doctor. As i said before jirachi, don't think your above the game just be apart of it. And alf, you hairy alien, after reading your last post it's obvious you have not played a tough game at a high level before.

jirachi lighten up - players do get bagged, coaches get bagged, basa gets bagged, even parents are getting bagged on here atm.

don't be so defensive and aggressive it seems like everytime i read you have an opinion on everything and bag people you don't think are entitled to an opinion.

knowing refs well they do expect a bit of critism it comes with the whistle, don't like it don't ref.

and before you get on your high horse and belittle me I do know what i am talking about I have done the hard yards.

start treating others around here with a bit of respect it seems like you could do with a lesson in manners and attitude

i'd love to know just who you are so i could tell you so in person

Refs dont hate big men just you cheezeburger

P.S. PO Killa

Jarichi! Mate! Take a chill pill my friend! YOu are obvously having a dry spell, and your frustration is coming through on the forum but we are a loving basketball community, and we are here to help!

To all who view this post, tell our young friend that he is loved! Our simple donation of love will bring this little tackers spirits right back up.

Come on folks it doesn't take much to show someone you care!

Bags is Back baby!!!!!

andre le fluer,
Wot does it matter wot level is being played?
It's obvious you haven't reffed before.

Critism and whiging are two different things. Like I said before be open to critism but only from those that know what they are talking about not some player/coach whinging when he doesnt know the rules or bothered to take the time to learn them.

biasbinding,
"don't like it don't ref"

Great job. Who do you suppose will actually ref these games if the refs dont ref? Cuz we obviously have so many lying around.

Depression in the Workplace Program launched
Thursday, 11 November 2004

Dear Need to get over his/herself Jirachi, hope this will help.

http://www.beyondblue.org.au/

Jirachi get of your hi horse
there are good refs and bad refs the same as players, coach's and spectator's nobody escapes critism its a fact of life

A Question: Why dont players/coaches try to talk to us instead of bagging us? You will most likely find you will get a reasonable answer.

Before the referee haters start whining like they do on the court, let me say there is a large percentage of coaches and players that do talk to referees in the right manner.

I find that 90% of the games I ref from ABL down thru juniors, I am able to communicate with most coaches and players. There are the few "bad apples" around, but you can normally find them in every sport.

It's all about communication, people!!!

No one said they had a right to 'bag' the refs coz they paid their money, just that they had a right to be critical. Its called life. The day you find a job where you can't be criticised by the people paying you, let me know. It usually follows that the person paying for a good or service being provided has the right to expect a quality product.

What constitutes a quality product in this instance is a matter of opinion..... OPINION!!! Jirachi, you sound like a little kid who's been called names, and is taking his ball home and not playing anymore. Just relax mate. People's opinions on this forum are not personal attacks on you.

alf

i'll stand by what i said 'don't like it don't ref'

if you don't enjoy something don't do it whether it be umpiring, being in a bad marriage, and a million other examples.

believe me i'm close enough to refs to know the score i'm from your side of the fence but it still means if you don't enjoy something don't do it and if that means solo games so be it.

maybe when there are no refs people will realise there is a problem.

or like someone said before its christmas soon maybe santa will leave a lot of ref's in basa's stocking.

there is a time however for everyone on here to stop being so defensive debate is often critical we can't all have the same opinion nor do we all have the solution but debate is healthy one sided views yada yada yada.......

Who cares about this whole topic...no-one is perfect and you are going to have good and bad umpires as well as good and bad players and good and bad coaches. This is life people.

There is no such thing as a perfect person.

we could always vote him as president or peter perfect

Most referees do try and communicate with players and coaches, and from a referee's perspective there are many times when asked what the call was about, we respond with what we believed happened yet the response we get back is usually negative, ie 'bullshit', or 'what were you watching'. After repeated occurances referee's then think to themselves, 'why bother explaining when we will just cop crap'. Each game is different and each person is different but this thought process still operates. Its all known as operant conditioning :D.

As referee's we expect to cop crap, and be singled out for a teams misfortunes. Its part of the job, and its always, ALWAYS going to happen. I agree with 'biasbinding' "dont like it dont ref". If you cant stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. We get paid to referee, and although abuse does become inappropriate on occasions, a good referee learns to cope with, and deal with misbehaviour appropriatly.

The problem lies with referee's becoming indecisive in what deserves a 'T', or action. For instance i follow by, if a coach of player swears and yells at me when arguing a call, audible enough for others to hear that warrants a 'T'. 'T' warnings only furthur create indecision in what warrants a tech.

If players and spectators do not want to listen to what a referee has to say, or is telling them about the game and their behaviour, expect that they shall continue recieveing fouls, and if the behaviour is bad enough Technical Fouls. Referees run the game and basically decide what is, and what isnt inside the rules, and yes it is considered a good game when we go un-noticed, but what everyone has to realise is that the referee holds the whistle. I dont want to sound like referees have a power trip, but they do control the game.

So next time a referee replies to your question, or informs you to 'keep your hands out', listen to them, and you will find the fortune will swing your way as you are listening to what the referee's are calling.

are you saying players don't know the rules alf? i thought you would have to know the rules to play the game. Next time i play i want the referees to sit both teams down and explain all the rules of play before the game starts so everyone is clear, even the referees.

Yup sure am.

A charge for example - some players think you HAVE to be stationary and can move forward.

You only need to know the basic rules to play the game.

simon simon simon haven't you ever seen coaches ask for a T isn't of a time out. haven't you seen players stand up to sub in when the couldn't (easier now with the new rule) haven't you seen the perplexed look on some faces when presented with something that is beyond the norm.

players know the rules to play the game but lots don't know the rules there is a subtle difference.

Play to the whistle, don't play for it. Don't initiate the contact then expect the official to bail you out. If you give then expect to receive it down the other end. If the ref is using preventative words to help you survive without a foul - listen to them!

Darling Jirachi, Its mummy here, dont worry about the big kids giving you a hard time just spit out your whistle and come home. Mummy loves ya

sound effects when a smaller player gets contacts from a big man is a call that big men hate because the umps protect guards.i got a tech for saying to a umpire 'your terrible'.

freddy u sound lik a good ref... assertive, dont take it personally when players get pissed, coomunicator and in control - but not a tool. Refs take notice of this man / lady.

so was i speaking for all big men in adelaide?

as my home ground is the dome i treat it likt a away game due to the umpires.

its a general comment to say jirachi

i just made the milestone 100th post.

I little to much time on your hands Cheezeburger Hrrrrrn

ive been working so hard i thought i might take a lil break.

I was a big man up until this year now i play 3 and 4 and it is so much more easier not 2 get as many fouls its true big men get more fouls more often. for rebounds and pushing fouls so if anyone tells u different they r wrong

Its natural that there is more body contact under the ring hence the "big men" will get more fouls.

What age/div are you talking of Cheezeburger?

Juniors? Or Seniors?

u20

hey doc...do you realise while your paying your $8 to pay, those refs you are abusing, and you "have the right to criticise" are getting "paid" less than what you paid to play?? (Unless payments have gone up in the time since I retired)

I dont see any refs (Jirachi included) coming on here, and saying "that #31 tonight, he was bloody disgraceful, he shouldnt even been allowed on court"....no of course they dont.

So why, oh why, are refs allowed to be fair game on the forum instead??

Is it because the players cant handle it, and will onyl lash out at those who cant (ie not allowed) to answer back??

Why dont the players come on here and say "oh my damn coach, he is so useless, if he was better I would not have missed all those shots"...nah...coz then you know the next week there go your minutes.

Lay off the refs....thats if you want any left....as Jirachi pointed out, if BASA cant provide them, your gonna have some untrained, unqualified parent running with the whistle...then we will see where the whinges come from.

The refs pay amounts to about that of what 1 and a half players pay to play. Rates differ on the level of the referee but are about that.

But in no way does the money you pay to play give you any right to attack a referee. You are not paying for the referees.

You actually pay your money for the facilities to play basketball, not for the refs.

Who pays the refs then?

Yogee, I'm not suggesting attacking referees is OK. I'm saying having an opinion on their performance is OK. Read my post. Don't change what I have said please.

My point was that players can have an opinion on refereeing. Jirachi was saying that unless you are a ref, you can't criticise refs. That's ridiculous. Any job is open to criticism. When players have paid to play, they can fairly expect a competent referee to umpire the game.

As to what refs get paid, its irrelevant. If they were paid $100 a game, they would be no more/less open to criticism.

Obviously many refs have posted on here about all topics. Their right to anopinion has not been questioned.

I don't know why all the refs have been so defensive. No one has named any names.

This is a forum isn't it? If Jirachi wants to criticise players, he/she can do so. I believe Jirachi has on occasion expressed an opinion regarding sixers/lightening players.

Just reading over this thread, no criticism has been aimed at Jirachi personally. In fact it began as a discussion about how different posoitions are called differently, a fact of the game (a necessary one to anyone in the know). It turned into an umpires VS the world thread because some people couldn't handle hearing valid concerns from people in the basketball community.

:)

doc...when you said that players pay their money, so therefore have a right to be critical, I am sorry, but I rtead that as having a go at refs is ok. If i misread you, I do apologise.

Further to my post doc......yes refs should be subject to criticism... from their UIC's, evaluators, and colleagues.

Players and coaches, who cant be bothered going and even doing a level 0 course, and even try reffing some social junior games have NO right to criticise.

Refs have no right to criticise a coach or aplayer, except in the form of a tech.

In my paid employment, I am only open to criticism from my supervisors. My customers certainly can lodge complains about me, if they feel they are warranted, but at the end of the day, they are complaining about processes I am adhering to as part of my job.

My actual performance (as in my hourly output, my work output and its benefit to the company) is only measured by supervisors.

Refs should be the same. Players performance is only critiqued by the coaching staff, and maybe others higher up within the club, and coaching staff are critiqued by management of the club.

SO, please explain why the refs are fair and open game to everyone??

I think you're getting confused as to what referees should realistically heed and what is actually possible. i.e., a player can criticise a call in a conversation, but a referee over-hearing that should ignore it.

If you get stopped by police, who doesn't question that decision? I don't have to endure some course at the police barracks or read the laws of my state and country to do that. I'm allowed to clarify that and every time I've been in that position, police have explained what's up.

IMO, you're pushing down the wrong path. Give up on the "you don't have a right to criticise referees" (because there's no truth to that). Instead, go for fair and reasonable interaction between parties. Teach/remind players that referees have limited time to discuss decisions during the flow of a game and that you'll get best results if you're polite and realise that just like you miss field goals, turn it over, or foul players, that referees will also make mistakes.

Realistically, everyone's fair and open game to everyone else. I'm pretty sure everyone's been criticised on here at some point or another!

very well said isaac
if a ref stopped and explained every call - if a ref made every call ie yes a cm of your toe was over the line therefore you violated ok the defence didn't see it you didn't gain any advantage but a rule is a rule is a rule and i must call all rules the game would last from lunch time to tea time and beyond.

at junior level some referee's are learning just as players are. you can not expect a ref to step on court and be able to handle all facets of the game - and sometimes that includes communication. players have the opportunity to train and train and train, till they hit the court, they also have the advantage of having a coach who can yell instructions, a captain to help them out and teammates they can even rest if they need to a ref is there for the entire game with his/her other team mate the other ref.

say don't put learners on junior games, where are you going to put them? abl, div 3, realistically the have to learn somewhere and sometimes unfortunately that is going to be your game. that also goes when refs step up the next level. again when players move up a level they are usually gently introduced to the league even newley isn't getting 48 mins a game and maher certainly served his time on the bench before getting huge minutes. the ref however can't sub in and out of the game, they can't introduce them in the garbage minutes when the game is already over.

players/spec/parents/coaches will by nature believe the ref's are at time wrong/horrible/bias/cheats or great/good/in their favour

players who focus on the referees do themselves a disservice. if the rings are soft you alter your shot, if you continue to bitch moan and complain that they don't suit your shooting etc you make the situation worse it becomes a mind game.

nathan said it before 'listen to what the ref's are saying get your hands out, don't hook' they are telling you by their words what they are letting the game be played. keep hooking and you are writing your own foul on the scoresheet.

it all really comes down to commonsense

I fully agree, and when i was reffing juniors, i always tried to explain my calls, to as much as the game would allow me.

However, a ref should not be expected to explain every call. That is just questioning what they are doing.

My point is that refs seem to be fair game all the time, because they dont have a right of reply. Sure...if you ask the ref, politely, what was the call, or why no call, I am sure they would be happy to explain.

What do you mean regarding right of reply?

They can reply at their discretion -- I've seen referees respond to players and coaches in nearly every game. I've also seen them reply with a tech to the coach, bench or player.

And I think we have a substantial number of referees on this forum replying to criticism. How do they have no right of reply?

aren't we talking or debating in circles.

certainly Isaac there are a number of officials on here that reply and like players, who post on here, they are of varying standards and experience
- i know there are lots who read and don't post.

however as a right of reply it really isn't an expected norm - nor should it ever be - that the ref would need to explain him/herself on a forum three nights or games after a call.

I agree with you both.

Yogee a ref shouldn't as a mother or father or policeman should expect to be harangued at every turn or on every call. they do have the position where they are making decision and some of those decisions aren't going to please everyone. people don't like authority but consider it a necessary evil. but we all question at times decisions of those in authority. Mum why should i have to go to bed now! if you have 20 players per game and do 3 games a week that is 60 players and 6 coaches and x number of spectators that are going to query a call.

some will do it politely but chances are one of those people are going to react badly to a situation and ask bluntly etc. it is the repeat offenders that need counselling. in an ideal world nobody would argue and all calls would be right but last time i checked the world was far from perfect.

Isaac - right of reply. yes some refs do have the ability to reply to players. but when you are talking over a wide spectrum of playing and umpiring levels what would you prefer. a ref who is concentrating when learning on getting the calls right and getting in the optimum position to see the action or one who will explain to player what has happened and then miss the next two calls cause the whistle was out of their mouths and attention was elsewhere. being able to talk with the whistle in the mouth or having the confidence to take it out and talk to the players is an acquired skill. also a player can scream yell rant and rave at a ref. sometimes they will get counselled sometimes they will get teched players and coaches will chase at times refs after the game i've yet to see many examples in comparison of referee's chasing players after teh game to complain about their passing or shooting techniques. nor a referee standing nose to nose to the player calling them all the names under the sun for missing a shot.

put yourself in a position of authority - mother, father, priest, policeman, boss, referee there will always be someone to query, question, moan, complain, Rebel!! it does come with the terrority. we would wish that the questions come with respect

after reading these essay length posts big men still get ripped off.

hands cheeseburger a tissue

Toughen up Cheezeburger, otherwise you'll be snacked on when you hit abl.

is that a cheezeburger and fries to go?

I think it's universal, everyone feels that they're hard done by. The guards complain about the hand/body checking, being held on cuts, poor screens, etc... Big men complain about 3', over the back, being held, etc... The coaches complain about the shooting percentage, the 1%'s and the refs, etc... The refs complain about the after match dinner not having enough pizza. *joking*

what postion on court usually gets fouled off? the big men?and why is this?