Geez, we wouldn't be talking about Norwood again would we? I'm not surprised that Sapwell (what the hell he could ever offer a talented kid is beyond me)would make such a offer! They do it every year. Instead of developing their own, it is easier to pick the best kids going around, offer free fees and uniforms and make promises to an unasuming player.

The player in question should stay where he is and continue what seems to be one of the best groups ever seen at this particular club in the past 10 years.

No-one will be surprised that this has happened, certain clubs (and I dont mean Sturt, do this all the time).

Pitty...
I dont think this is regarding Norwood.
a.Sapwell coaches Junior development squad.
b.To my Knowledge Norwood has never given free fees or uniforms for a new player.
c.Paul should specify the rules , then he cant break them.

Dr Damage... You are an idiot! Ignorance is bliss. It is nice to think your club has never done this before but check into reality buddy, kids talk and so do the parents. Norwood, and especiall the U16 & U14 Boys coaches over the years have been doing this religiously. I just find it funny that you guys cant admit it...

Regarding Sapwell coaching JD squad, I wonder if he's teaching them how to bank 3's?

Pitty...
Of course I am an idiot.
How many of the current Norwood 14/16 boys have been poached?

As an idiot, I am not sure so can you enlighten me...please.

This player obviously took an opportunity to further his career in this sport. He would be the 5th under 16's player from CDBC to do so this year, albeit the only div1 player. I would suggest the players or the parents dont have confidence in CDBC to do the best for their future and the club needs to address this. Lets just wish the kid the best and not drag this issue out.

Dr Damage (or other people from your club), perhaps you could treat these questions as rhetorical. It would be interesting to hear your thoughts on them.

Perhaps after you answer the questions, I would suggest your inform your committee/coaching staff of your thoughts. Given your extensive background, experiences and knowledge, compared with all of the coaches in your boys/mens program you are in a position to offer your people some enlightnment I am sure. They might also be able to offer you some enlightnment on their actions and motives.

I dont want to get into a shooting contest on this (I have too much amo on this one and prefer my battles to be a challenge) here.

are we talking about the tall centrals lad in the state squad - he has good game

Way too much water gets on your bacon for a start. Goddam messy tryin to crack the blood thing into water. Diminished taste. An altogether poor option IMO. Go scrambled, a bit more random but way more satisfying.

Sween - are you Kevin Sheedy?

Wow! My kid has played in state champs and our team narrowly earnt the right to make the Classics. He has been with the club for a few yrs now. Now this Centrals kid comes into the team 3 wks away from the Classics, after we have booked our trip over there.

Whats this about discounted fees and free uniforms?

My kids court time better not be effected. Why would my kid/me bother puttinig in so much effort in the state champs and over the yr?

whats wrong with bringing up a div 2 kid to give him a chance instead of poaching (mid season its poaching,start of the season its recruiting)what message does this send to the rest of your club.this shows the lack of respect this club has for its lower div players.also very low on the centrals kids parents for allowing this to happen. the player is only a guard he will only get lost in the pack next year going into U18.If hes gone for the coaching,hes going to be very disappointed the norwood u16s have under achieved for years

Dr Damage,

This has been happening for a number of years now.

A past Norwood player was never invoiced by the club under an agreement to continue playing.

When he then asked for a clearance, he was told he had to pay $1200 in fee's.

The kid is now playing football.

And it is not only the boys side.

Last year an U16 girls was poached exactly the same way. Free fee's and uniform. Funny that as a bottom age U18 player they are now in the State team of the same coach who "recruited" them in U16's.

Ask your other coaches, ask your president, ask Sapper himself.

If you think that text messaging a player offering them college scholarships if you come and play for Norwood is OK, then we will see how you like it when your kid gets recruited over.

Clubs are put in difficult positions occassionly when player's or player's parents approach the club with a view to move.
Integrity like good tradesmen is a thing of the past and clubs usually go for the short term fix, take the kid and perpetuate the poaching myth.
There are two clubs that are notorious for their methods but only because of their success at it and I for one am envious rather than overly critical.
Until BSA lead (an oxymoron)and enforce restrictions, introduce zones with a moratorium for those already playing then it's useless to complain about poaching or 'recruiting'.
Mavericks were decimated and the smaller clubs lose their better players to succulent offers by the big fish -natural selection.
The lopsided district comp is a comp in name only where the big four duel for end of season honours oblivious to the harm they have done and do to basketball and brag about their stoic rise from obscurity and the hard , hard work that got them to the heights they enjoy today.
Every kid that leaves a .
smaller club drives us closer to basketball's demise as a genuine alternative sport for our young people

I dont think this is regarding Norwood.

- Well elementary my good Dr, it is.

a.Sapwell coaches Junior development squad.

- what is this squad? Does he coach a team though? How many junior games has Rupert seen this year? Did he checkout the best junior talent in the state during the State Champs or some of the best, in the country, during the Easter Carnival? Is heading over to the Classics? On the basis of his level of junior basketball involvement in this state why would he feel the need to contact 15 yr old boys, that he does not know, has not seen play other than to "sell" their club.
Given:
- your club's junior performances going nowhere but South over the past 7 yrs culminating this yrs performance do you believe that you can honestly "sell" what your club can do for its juniors.
- Given that your club's current U20 was the most dominant group the club had from U12s in 10 yrs yet by the time they get to U20s they cannot even make State Champ finals or produce anymore than 1 U20 State bench player this yr.

If you can still sell your program then why not get your U16 coach to contact the player's parents for an adult discussion - not that I would condone this. Instead, Rupert contacts the mobile of a 15 yr old boy and tells him if ever you have problems at your club we will welcome you with open arms?  I actually find this a little icky to be honest. Imagine if we have Ricky, Dan Clausen, Scotty Whitmore start doing this  not that we will.

b.To my Knowledge Norwood has never given free fees or uniforms for a new player.

- Dr. to my knowledge they have.

c.Paul should specify the rules , then he cant break them.

- Dr. a few yrs ago my club at the time, who happens to be Norwood, had a kid in the U18 SA Metro State program. One of the better players in the state at the time. I had just taken over the team as Norwood had just SACKED their U18 Div 1 coach 4 games into the summer season, but that's another classic story. The kid approached Sturt to be told that they would do the right thing by their current players and he would only be offered a Div 2 spot and would have to earn his way into Div 1. They advised the kid to try to sort out his issues with his current club (your club) first. My experience with Sturt is in direct contrast with this issue. Infact they had the player fall into their lap but did almost everything to do the best thing for the kid and basketball.

ExLion I will respond to your post in due course, at the right time. I don't want to get the issue off topic here. This is too an important issue.

Jumpin: Saying Sturt don't "recruit in the shade" is like saying Phill can coach. Poaching isn't the issue, BSA's non policy of worth is.

nothing in life is free

(Mod: Canberra Cannon, given that this is a contentious post, please provide your name and email address before it is reinstated. Don't make statements that you aren't prepared to back up in court.)

(#11615) There is nothing wrong with it. It all depends on which club you are from.

I can feel another "ring me at the front office post coming."

CC, please retract that. It's a lie.

And henceforth comes the "poaching is good/bad post/bitchfest" 2007 version!

Im not trying to defend Sturt. I'm just stating my experiences in dealing with them. Look I have been around for over 20 yrs and have never heard of anything like this happening. I have never heard of ABL Coaches making direct approaches to boys and making outlandish statements.

(Mod: Edited by request from the poster.)

ok no problems SB. Whatever makes you feel better.

So was that a retraction? Accusing someone falsely on a public forum can have serious consequences you realise?

"Given that your club's current U20 was the most dominant group the club had from U12s in 10 yrs yet by the time they get to U20s they cannot even make State Champ finals or produce anymore than 1 U20 State bench player this yr. "

JBB - this is incorrect. This year is not their dominant year. This year's group is the bottom-age group. Next year as top-age players is when they should dominate, as they did last year in 18's when they won both seasons and a medal at Classics.

Anon - read it again. JBB is suggesting this group should dominate THIS YEAR. They have never dominated as bottom-age players, so to be fair, a mid-range finish is where they currently stand. NEXT year, as top-age players, they will be better.

Cat, I will take that on board. You know the group well. Perhaps you might care to answer StBernards questions above? See my purpose is a positive one. I hope to make people aware of this so they can vigilant. I also hope to discuss what people's thoughts are so that maybe some Presidents read this and develop some guidelines or rules because ethics and morals on how to approach kids just dont work.

I would suggest there is not much gap between U20 1st yr and 2nd yr. U20s is a "funny" one because the best players only play during state champs weekend. I guess you can come back here in June next yr and tell me I was wrong or maybe right.

JBB - most of what you say is valid. I just wished to clarify the point regarding the U20 group. I think you will find that we are pretty much on the same page regarding this issue.

By the way, not sure who you think I am, but I really don't know the group that well at all, apart from the facts I have stated above.

SB - do you differentiate between having players who've been poached (by others in the club) and poaching players directly?

If they had waited until the player finished this season with his current club, he would have joined his new club as a first year U18 player with no understanding of the clubs plays, ethics, training regime etc. They obviously wanted him for the next season not this one, the remainder of this season will serve as a familiarisation time with the added benefits of probably strengthening their U16 chances this season. I think if had not gone now, the offer may have lapsed.

OK Ex Lion:

In regards to 135756 : I'm not sure on the correlation the 2 players that went to West have to do with this issue. Can you explain it? As its not relateed, why don't you create a separate thread or just use one of the other Centrals bashes and I will respond.


In regards to 135936. No ABL coaches/committee members should be approaching 15 yr old boys at all. Especially when they do not know them.

I'll explain. By undertaking this action it:
- undermines the efforts of all the volunteers in our club that spend 100s of hours recruiting players to basketball and developing our players.
- undermines the efforts of our own players who put a significant amount of time and effort into developing their basketball.
- undermines our parents who have booked a trip to Melbourne on the basis of a "team" travelling over only to find 2 weeks before we go that we have one less player in the team.
- it undermines, as stated in 135776 , their own players in Div 2/3/4/5 who are trying to develop their games to play at a higher division.
- Undermines the players in the Norwood team that have made the Classics and will not be getting the same opportunities at the Classics or for the rest of the season.
- It destroys our competitive U16 competition. Our team is now less competitive and Norwood will now be alot stronger. This hampers the development of our top players in the state as they are not going to face as a competitive game each week as they would have.
- It opens the gateway for all players to be "poached". If Norwood do it then should Sturt/West/Woodvielle/Centrals do it? What enticements can we offer? Should 15 yr old kids be paid? where does it end? Get agents for these kids?

Do you think this action will be good for basketball in SA or bad? You keep making it about the player. You don't ever seem to see the big picture? Does this help?

Ex Lion.

You have no idea whatsoever the amount of time, money and effort for the parents/coaches/players that this effects. If you had been in their shoes you would make some educated comments on this issue. Feel free to call me and discuss the efforts Ricky, Committee members, my players, parents and I, I can also give you some insight on the efforts of the Norwood players that are affected. Do you still have my number?

NORWOODS actions are pathetic,this is junior sport,BSA should block his clearance or why dont we all just poach each others players have open season on everybody.norwoods big kids would be better off at sturt anyway

NORWOODS actions are pathetic,this is junior sport,BSA should block his clearance or why dont we all just poach each others players have open season on everybody.norwoods big kids would be better off at sturt anyway

or is this poaching a reflection on how the norwood 16s are tavelling,they are along long way off the top 2 teams.rockets nearly beat them.

Carloisking: Yes, that is not a bad point. Keep in mind that Centrals lost to Norwood by 5 pts in the State Champs after leading most of the game. These 2 teams were prety even in that game.

It is my opinion that the actions of Sapwell and Co. destroys the development of all players at this level. One of the best things about our U16 comp is that it is very strong AND EVEN. One of the strongest players in the competition has moved from our very competitive team over to another team. Anyone involved in junior basketball that thinks it does not involve them and does not impact them are not getting the point. It does!

The State CHamps game is the game that I beleive the player's parents were approached by the Norwood COmmittee member, after Rupert agreed, in writing, to leave the player alone.

Dr, you have gone remarkably quiet. Do you care to provide us with your thoughts on the rhetorical questions by St Bernards.

(Mod: Disclosure - 135951 is from the same computer as carloisking.)

Pitty people never get all the facts. This kid did trial at another club at beginning of season and made enquiries at 2 others. If he didnt go to Nwd would have gone to another club. Didnt a player recently move from another club and go the North Adelaide??? Didnt Centrals get a North player?? Its a players choice to move clubs and has happened since I can remember.

Mee,

Nobody is saying that players should NOT be allowed to move clubs. And the fact that the kid didn't move a the beginning of the season says something. More so with the fact that the kid has been offered a spot in a classics team 2 weeks out.

I wonder what his State coach is going to think when he doesn't play for the next month while the clearence is being sorted out and how badly the kid will perform coming inot Nationals without any games under his belt becasue Norwood did the wrong thing.

It is being said that clubs should not openly pursue players with promises they might not be able to keep. Especially at the detriment to the competition, the player and other clubs.

This kind of behaviour says that all clubs should openly approach players from Norwood becasue Norwood is going to do it to them first.

Also, that clubs should not let their players attend Ruperts clinics because he can't be trusted to do the right thing.

Put all of this in perspective please. Has the club, Centrals lodged a complaint with BSA? If not why not?
As many have stated, poaching is the norm and no clear rules apart from SASI players are defined in blood.
Yes poaching hurts, not only the club losing the player but basketball and the spirit of Basketball. But does BSA care?
It seems that only when it impacts on our personal club do we kick up about it rather than be indignant at poaching fullstop.
We can have all the surveys in the world and BSA lead 'pretend changes of direction' but unless the clubs unite on making indivudual clubs as strong as possible our comp will remain lopsided and provide very few contests which spells the end of our ability to compete effectively on a National level.
I hope this matter can be resolved in public and if Norwood is guilty , harshly fined and if innocent cleared and its' name restored. Norwoods image of late is sorely tarnished and continual references to alledged misconduct are harming basketball.
I restate my view, zone and these poaching issues would be dead and buried and clubs would have designated areas to develop talent. Country areas need to be zoned to district clubs and players that fall within those areas must play wiith the club zoned to.
Make no mistake unless changes occur soon there won't be enough kids playing basketball left to poach.

Mee, your post is partially correct, mostly not. I really do not want to go into specifics here about the player involved. Why don't you drop me a line and then come back on here and comment on your actions - Isaac has my email.

I have told the player and parents that they have my (our clubs) full support. We would never hold back a player from what they thought would further their basketball. I consider them both friends. The Mother is nothing short of outstanding, in all my dealings with her. She is doing everything she can to make sure her son succeeds. Can we please steer away from specifics on the kid involved. This issue is bigger than him.

Why dont you contact me to get your facts.

This situation is an on-going occurance.

Sturt "recruited" a young lad from the Mavs at the beginning of the Summer season 2005 - much to the disgust of parents of fringe players. Sturt and Mavs previously were quite even and played some very close games. This transfer resulted in Sturt beating Mavs convincingly in future games.

This "recruiting"/poaching has happened before and will happen again unless rules are put in place to prevent it.

SoupNazi,

"Put all of this in perspective please. Has the club, Centrals lodged a complaint with BSA? "

I beleive so. Infact I know so. Have a word to your club President. Tell them to voice their views at the next Presidents forum.

I also lodged a complaint with the person involved in the approach 12 weeks ago asking them to put a stop to this.

Easy way to fix this situation is for Centrals not to clear him for 4 weeks, he does not play Classics and sends a clear messgae to dodgy people that this type of behaviour is unwanted in our sport.

JBB; I've done that on more than one occassion.
What was BSA's response to the complaint? I'm assuming that you have had a response.

The answer to the poaching issue is simple.

Sign up every little kid that comes into your respective clubs onto a contract. That way you will avoid this "they poached him/ her" buisness.

OR we can just keep on going on with the way things are already and accept that people have the freedom of choice to move to which ever club they like!

If you are not happy at you club, talk to them. If you are not satisfied with the response, move. Simple

5067,

Wrong,
The player was told by his club that he would be the 3rd point guard and not get much court time.
His family spoke to a friend who played for Sturt.They then contacted the coach and were directed to the coaching director.

This was not poaching or recruiting.

All Clubs lose players, and some good ones too. It costs a lot of money to play bball nowadays - its good to get your monies worth. If the kids have turned 'professional' and get paid themselves, then a lot more to consider. Jumping BB well done on supporting them lets keep things in perspective.

# 135986

You are a clown 506. The kid you say sturt poached from the mavs in 2005 came there of his own free will because he wanted to have better coaching and improve his game. I should know my kid is good mates with him and that was part of the reason. The commitment the parents made for him was huge. Guess what , he is state country as a first year so it must have been worthwhile. Doesn't play district at the moment due to footy but will return at some stage I believe somewhere.

Mee, I have things in perspective. Are you going to contact me directly? I am very careful not to discuss specifics on this player in detail here on this forum, unless it adds value to the discussion and is not too specific.

Im surprised the Dr has gone.... I have made an accusation about his club offering free uniforms and fees to attract players. I don't know if this happened in this case. Why don't you find out Mee and let us know?

I know this has happened before. I know Norwood have also given this and offered this to their current players to 'keep them'. Ask me some questions about that if you want.

mee, is your name Jeff? If it is then I really would like you to contact me.

Skase, You've been overseas too long in Spanish courts.
Poaching issues are never simple and do a lot of damage to the clubs involved in the allegations.
If, like your client, your club is innocent of wrong doing and your splashed across a public forum as guilty, you might feel aggrieved.
However, if your guilty and have stolen a player away from another club without penalty you would be tempted to continue the practice.
the legal fraternity seem to see all things in shades of grey flannel when basketball is asking for clarity.
Is approaching a player from another district club an acceptable thing to do. The mores of today suggest yes.
Is it morally and ethically sound, I'd say a resounding No.
The dilemma then is to have the governing body resolve the issue. Unfortunately, that body, BSA, seems to have difficulty in, one: understanding the issue of poaching and what poaching does to the competitive aspect of basketball at junior level and two: finding the integrity to implement clear and effective guidelines to deter such practices. Three: providing future directions to its member clubs that would lead to strengthening the junior competition by developing feeder areas for each of its member clubs.
Football and cricket introduced zones to clarify these issues and have never looked back. Without such laws the best AFL players would all be playing at the club with the deepest pockets. The best NBL players like wise.
This is what's happening in junior district on a micro scale. Twillville or Plurt for example are top in x,y,and z age groups and 'attract', 'recruit' players to those teams to maintain their positions with whatever inducements are needed. Promises of SASI or free uniforms or reduced or no fees etc.
Junior District needs the equivalent of a salary cap.
Ask yourself why zones are opposed so vigorously by the top clubs?

Sorry but Mee short for feeemale.

Oh Ok, sorry Mee. I do hope you contact me anyway before making comments on the specific players involved to get your facts right. You are fairly way off course.

Believe on very good grounds that Central youngster was not the only one approached by the mighty red and blue. Believe they needed a point guard and went on a skiing trip up the river to see if there was any interest.

Hillbilly do you know this for fact? Do you know which player? Please contact me to discuss this? Please do not accuse anyone of anything unless you are very sure it happened.

Interested to see whether the Centrals lad actually qualifies for teh Classics? See below....

PLAYER QUALIFICATION

All teams may nominate up to 12 players, all of whom must be registered members with the same association/club and appropriate state body. Further, all but two must be regular members of the team that qualified for selection, according to the criteria of the appropriate state association. Player lists must be provided to the Classic Administrator in writing two weeks prior to the tournament. The nominated players are those appearing on the Player List. The Player List must include full name and date of birth of each player, and a declaration of eligibility by an association/club official. Only the nominated players are permitted to play. (Note that there are additional conditions for qualification for final rounds). If player nominations are not received by the due date a fine of $100.00 shall apply. In the case of a dual nomination of a member by two association/clubs then regular residence shall determine which team the player shall represent. If a nominated player is injured (or becomes otherwise medically unfit) prior to the commencement of the first match of the tournament then a replacement must be approved by the committee. The notification of withdrawal and replacement must be in writing to the Classic Administrator and be accompanied by a medical certificate. Should a nominated member withdraw for any other reason than injury or illness, then a committee shall review the situation and make a decision as to whether a replacement should be permitted.

ENOUGH SAID!

The last thing I would want to see is this player to miss out on anything. You see, I invest alot of time/money into this as does the player and his parents. Been naive is one thing but I would hate for him to be deprived of anything. He is a good guy and friend on and off the court as is his mother. I do have a problem if he suits up against his old team in a couple of weeks. Lets see if Norwood step in to stop this from happening.

All is said and done here for now from my point of view. Unless anyone puts anything up I'm interested in I will let this die. I'm sure time will tell if our program, our other elite players will recover from this knowing their team mates might be picked off. Time will tell if our coaches will stay when they know that players can be hitup by a Rupert Sapwell and hounded by parents/committee members from a club.

I have raised the issue. Some interesting comments in regards to rule changes etc. Lets hope this gets to the Presidents and some guidelines are put in place for the future.

JBB
3 U16 players went to west. 1 went to norwood, all before the beginning of the summer season. I dont like bashing Centrals as I spent so many years there and wish them the best. But, the committee there and junior coaches need to act on the players hopes and desires, not their own.

quote - undermines the efforts of all the volunteers in our club that spend 100s of hours recruiting players to basketball and developing our players.

* CDBC have not spent 100's of hours recruiting. They should have, considering the size of the district, but recruiting has been minimal. Hundreds of hours recruiting and not 1 under 10's team... sure. Dont test me on this one, I have too much ammo.

quote - undermines the efforts of our own players who put a significant amount of time and effort into developing their basketball.

* Agreed, but so did the players who left. They must have decided their efforts would be better rewarded elsewhere.

quote - undermines our parents who have booked a trip to Melbourne on the basis of a "team" travelling over only to find 2 weeks before we go that we have one less player in the team.

* Bring a player up to fill the gap, or have you been ignoring your Div2 players and not provided them proper training?

quote - it undermines, as stated in 135776 , their own players in Div 2/3/4/5 who are trying to develop their games to play at a higher division.

* Now is the chance to reward one of them.

quote - Undermines the players in the Norwood team that have made the Classics and will not be getting the same opportunities at the Classics or for the rest of the season.

* Agreed

quote - It destroys our competitive U16 competition. Our team is now less competitive and Norwood will now be alot stronger. This hampers the development of our top players in the state as they are not going to face as a competitive game each week as they would have.

* CDBC has at least 1 player that has played in the Div1 team before, why not bring him back up. Develop him!

quote - It opens the gateway for all players to be "poached". If Norwood do it then should Sturt/West/Woodvielle/Centrals do it? What enticements can we offer? Should 15 yr old kids be paid? where does it end? Get agents for these kids?

* Any kid that gets poached, must have it the back of his mind anyway. I think it's wrong mid-way through a season, but I can understand it.

Do you think this action will be good for basketball in SA or bad? You keep making it about the player. You don't ever seem to see the big picture? Does this help?

* This is junior basketball, these are kids! It is all about them! Sure I would love to see kids limited to playing within geographical boundaries but thats impractical. These are children and you must let them have fun and enjoy their sport, not tie them down with politics.

I dont know if I have your number coz I dont know who you are.

I'm not that hard to find contact Isaac, the moderator. He knows who I am. I have left a message on your mobile to discuss this.

I really do not want to get into a discussion with you on this here. You are clearly naive to many of these issues, don't understand the facts and I would be happy to discuss with you to save you any embarassment here.

My time in educating you here will only distract from the real issue.

Having said that if you wish to pursue this here I am more than happy to respond. Can we do it another thread? We can call it the educate Ex Lion thread.

By your tone, you consider yourself far superior to me and I dont know if my humble opinion would have any value to you. I am only a parent of an aspiring basketball player, similar to the ones you deal with now, I am representative of the people you need to convince that you are good for my kids, and you insult me?
Your threats to embarrass me make me reluctant to discuss anything with you, next thing you will want to sort this out with an arm wrestle.
If you want to start a new thread, I'd be happy to check it out.
Poaching your player was not fair, but it has happened, hopefully this thread and the many cries of "foul" will make future poachers reluctant to follow through. Now get over it and use the resources you have to the best of your ability.
Your suggestion that I am naive is wrong, I understand CDBC and how it runs. I have seen for 6 years what I thought was good for the boys, since then I have seen how it should be done.
You might consider other peoples opinions as being plausible before you downplay them as naive or without understanding.
I will gladly return your call tomorrow at a more reasonable hour.

You are free to post anything you want. I am just not sure your opinion is based on all the facts. Once I make you aware of those facts if you still have the same opinion then come on here and say it if you want!

Ummmmmm.... You may want to take a deep breath, step back and read my post that has offended you again. If you still find it offensive then I do apologise.

There is nothing wrong with your opinions and last time we spoke some of your points were very valuable in my opinion. One of the things I would like to discuss is how I took them on board and improved in some of the areas that you suggested.

As I said I am more than happy to reply here if you really want me to, its your call. I just thought it might be better if we discuss it offline. Hhappy to chat on the phone, on email, here or in person anytime.

Thanks for your time.

Interesting comment SB...If you did take legal action against someone on this forum, (going by what CC has stated), you would only want 1 player/parent to come fwd and state otherwise or even suggest that they were spoken to by your club about switching etc and you may be in a little trouble yourself. Court costs, defamation etc. May be worth considering before you talk legal action I would think...Just food for thought.

Errollll, I don't know that truth is a defense against defamation proceedings in Australia - any lawyers know more? Maybe I'm thinking of the US? All they'd have to do is get their target for dragging down their reputation.

Also, CC's contention and SB's request for a retraction was regarding himself (and maybe PM, depending on how you want to read it) - you're talking in broader terms about an entire club (coaches, other volunteers, parents, etc).

Its not just about the fact contact was initiated. Its about WHO initiated the contact. Who directed him to do this?

Wow defamation never occured to me! But I suppose I could be open to this. I hope we can leave court cases out of this. That is the last thing I want.

This is a basketball issue and only one incident that I perceive to be wrong.

I am sure the people involved are very, very good people and do alot for the game. Maybe they feel they made a mistake  maybe they are happy with what occurred.

The good people involved have my contact details. I am sure they could contact me and ask me to retract any comments I have made, I am sure they would if this was damaging to them and I would do so to avoid the costs of a court case.

My initial post is part frustration, part trying to generate discussion about putting rules in place to stop these things from occuring. Given the time and $1000s we volunteers and our kids/parents invest in basketball each year, including our Melbourne trip next weekend, I hope anyone can understand.

This is all but one incident. The last thing I want to do is drag myself or anyone through court.

thesoupnazi(#136013)Yep you have made some good points regarding the AFL & NBL. I will remind you that every player in those competitions is on a contract and recieving renumeration for their services.

Zoom ahead to our junior district competition and no one is signed to a contract and no kid is getting paid for it; that is the whole difference.

Start putting little Johnny Pickanose or Sally Smellypants onto a paid contract with terms & conditions and then if a club wants to "poach" that player, they will have to compensate original club for doing so.

While there are no contracts between junior players and their respective clubs you cannot stop player movement between clubs, no matter wether you call it poaching or moving on to greener pastures. It is called freedom of choice.

I personally think that contracts between juniors and clubs would be a regretful step to take.

One rule I would like to see brought in is a cut off point that a player cannot move clubs after a certain round, say rd 5 or 6 or what ever is decided is best. By doing this anyone that is thinking of moving will get it out of the way before the season gets too far going and effects things such as State champs, Classics and feelings.

CSL, interesting idea regarding the cut-off point - anyone know if it's been considered in the past?

Juniors playing ABA are contracted and this occurs usually at the U18 stage occassionally earlier. They put out a list of required players to prevent poaching.
There is already a cut off point in place now at mid season for transfers.
Restriction on movement brought about by a zoning system would not cause the fall of the roman empire as most think and would allow development to be measured.
Clubs would have to work their country zones and develop talent in their metro areas to succeed. Poaching would be impossible because if a kid was outside your area you couldn't have them. Cheque books and promises would be redundant.
You never know , loyalty to a club may return along with pride in the jumper and every one could boast 'home grown talent'.
In relation to the above poaching issue, I feel sure had this been a genuine case of poaching and given the public knowledge about it, BSA would have acted by now. In this case do we presume silence is innocence?
From Norwood's perspective, I'd be slightly annoyed to be hauled over the coals if I was innocent of all charges but can anyone say with absolute certainty, whether they be Guilty or Innocent?

thesoupnazi, yep, I agree with your last post.

The zoning has to be the way to go; however you need to allow kids that are already playing out of their zone to stay with the current club they are with. You would then also need to allow the siblings of these children to play at the same club as bigger brother or sister, plus you would need a farther/ son, mother/ daughter, mother/ son, farther/ daughter rule to apply as well. A sensible rule on country zoning would also need to be established.

There would be a lot to work out; however I still have not ever heard of one good reason why zoning would not work & why it has not been introduced yet.

Dare I say that some clubs dominance in some areas would evaperate within a few seasons, should a zoning rule come into place.

Only SASI athletes can't be poached without penalty. The member clubs see it as open season on any player, and therein lies the problem. BSA have no policies of worth on very much and the top member clubs rule th'e roost.
Its a case of shooting ourselves in the foot by allowing things like this to go unchecked because ultimately instead of there being 4 games a season that are trully competitive it will become one or two games.
The girls comp is that in name only and you could engrave the winners preseason with little chance of error.
Norwood will win the 18's, north will win the 16's and Sturt will win the 14's with only one team in each division capable of causing an upset and the tables are meaningless.
And in this environment, the top clubs keep stealing players to weaken an already weak comp and BSA sits on its hands and sees no evil.
No one, it seems, wants a competition only a premiership and until we all value the competitive angle basketball will continue to slide.
Competition only exists when as level as possible playing field is presented and where dominance across age groups is shared across clubs. There is no answer to making the present district competition competitive other than zoning.
Big clubs always accuse small clubs of not being able to develop players but the truth is, the only difference between large and small clubs ability to develop players is numbers.
Sturt, forestville , norwood all like to think its their personnel and superior coaching programs. In truth if you don't have numbers you can't develop them. If you do have players with ability they magically get enticed to these bigger clubs who 'further develop' them.
Players get better when tested week in week out in true competition. What value is there in winning by 40 points every week?
Surely the goal should be to play competitive ball? Answer it honestly how many weeks of the year do the better teams get to play competitive ball?
Too often the top clubs explain that zones will simply be a cop out for the smaller clubs who are lazy and useless and wasted space. The truth is they would stop the poaching and equalize the competition.
It's shortsighted of BSA (us)to allow superclubs to develop. Is the future a two club comp?

Soup Nazi: Where is this rule state. I think you are wrong, unfortunately. "Only SASI athletes can't be poached without penalty. "

soupnazi,

Actually the rule is the opposite.

State coaches and SASI coaches that are moving clubs are the only one's who can be fined. Can't even stop the kid from moving.

$750 fine if a Full-Scholarship player moves to the club of the State Coach or moves to the same club as a SASI coach from their own club.

THat is the definition of poaching.

Agreed: You are wrong my friend, the club not the coach is fined and its for scholarship holders not specifically full scholarship holders as the the policy below clearly states.

My statement that SASI athletes can't be poached without penalty is technically correct however, several trains, plains and automobiles have chuffed, flown and driven through the loop holes in this porly drafted policy.
Below is the policy:
5.2. Poaching by State Junior Coaches and Staff (C35)
A club will be fined $750 for "poaching" if each of the following is true:
" a SASI scholarship holder is cleared to that club,
" a coach at that club either currently coaches a state team in the
player's age group, or has done so in the 12 months prior to the
player being cleared.
" the coach is a current SASI network coach or head coach
A club will also be fined $750 for "poaching" if both of the following are
true:
" a SASI network coach or head coach moves to that club,
" a SASI scholarship holder is cleared from the coach's old club to the
coach's new club within the three months of the coach changing
clubs.
ANON #353. I'm right ,your wrong so, No soup for you!

If South Australia is serious about growing the game and developing players then ANY APPROACH UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES to junior players should be stopped. Its simple. NO EXCEPTIONS. Otherwise clubs are wasting their time recruiting players and investing volunteer time AND MONEY in developing players.

Basketball Victoria rules:
2 Clearances


2.1 Subject to any by-law, rule or regulation made by an association, a player registered with a club in an association and playing in a non-representative competition may also play with another club in another association in a non-representative competition without a clearance.



2.2 A player who is registered and playing with an association in a representative competition may not train with, negotiate a clearance to or register with another association without written approval from their current association.



2.3 An association intending to negotiate with a player for a clearance shall not commence the negotiations until the player has the necessary written permission under by-law 2.2.



2.4 If an association rejects or does not respond to a request under by-law 2.2 within fourteen (14) days of the request being received, the player may make the request again and, unless there are exceptional circumstances, the association shall grant the request.



2.5 An association shall not invite a player to train or seek a clearance from another association without first informing the player's current association of its intention to approach the player.



2.6 An association shall conduct negotiations for a clearance with courtesy to the player and the player's current association, with minimum pressure on the player and in a spirit of openness.



2.7 Where a player is playing in representative competition, a clearance in a form approved by the relevant association or a Basketball Victoria clearance form shall be obtained from the player's club before the player may register with another club in the same association or competition or another association.



2.8 A club receiving a request for a clearance shall reply to the request within fourteen (14) days of its receipt, either by granting or refusing the request.



2.9 If a club fails to reply to the request for clearance within the required fourteen (14) days, the player may immediately notify the relevant association or delegated or governing body and the player shall be registered with the new club without a clearance unless there are exceptional circumstances.



2.10 An association or delegated or governing body may restrict the eligibility of players cleared during a season.



2.11 A club may only refuse a clearance at the completion of a season if the player has not fulfilled their obligations to the club, association or delegated or governing body.



2.12 Where a player requests registration with a club following the discontinuance of that player's current club, the association or delegated or governing body shall register the player.

This post highlights what a lot of people think and confirms why so many kids leave the game - It is apparent that it is not about the kids development but what these coaches are prepared to do to achieve their ambitions. The unfortunat thing after reading all the crap on this post is you can bet your bottom dollar most of the comment on here is from SASI coaches with their own self interest and have coached at the so called highest level. The I know everything mentality really comes to the for doesn't it. Would not be hard to name half a dozen of these cowboys who hide behind alias's and have their own agenda's. God help the game in this state with this kind of behaviour stemming from the top down.

The coaches in question are not SASI coaches.

mmmm.... I'm a volunteer investing $10,000s of my own money into the development of basketball. Every year I quit basketball, every year my club asks me to give it "one more year".

I'm not a SASI coach. My job outside of basketball pays moderately well. I will never coach an NBL team or a professional team at all, and there is no way I would want to  the pay isn't good enough to cover the risk of been sacked. How can you suggest that I beleive my self interest be the most important thing here?

BackwardsBasketballSA,

If you think that thoes bylaws are adhearded to in Victoria you are kidding yourself. When was the last time a clearance was held up?

1 State Coach had numerous players over the years move to their club. These players were spoken to outside of those rules. But who can prove it. The players is not going to tell a complaints committee that the club with the State coach approached them if they want to go and play for them.

Same with our ABA restricted players rules. If you think that clubs don't talk to players before they put in a request to speak to them you are kidding yorself.

Its not from where he is going but where he is going to dodo brain. Then again he's a good country kid so it does not really matter then.

http://www.basketballwales.com/index.htm#Poaching

Player Poaching
To encroach upon another club's development work and encourage a young player to change clubs is a breach of Basketball Wales Code of Ethics & Conduct (see website) extracts are as follows:
Coaches should note that it is poor practice to make direct contact with a junior player currently not registered to your club with a view to them joining your club or to play for you in another tournament or competition, including representative teams.
Any contact from a third party should be made in the first instance via the players current club / coach prior to contacting the players parents / guardians, and the contact should only be for legitimate basketball reasons.
The practice of poaching players from another club cannot be condoned. Complaints involving young age-group players are particularly disturbing as these players are in their formative years and generally neither they nor their parents have an awareness of what it takes to develop as a basketball player.
There is no substitute for putting in the time in learning the fundamentals; these objectives are not always met by moving to a stronger club. In many cases this can mean more time on the bench for a stronger team and/or being less challenged by the opposition. At the same time increased travel time, cost or dislocation from friends, family and ones own community may be part of the price.
There are exceptions where outstanding potential may need to be developed; however these should be dealt with by following the procedure summarised earlier. Open and honest dialogue can assist all parties and will enable coaches to retain their integrity as basketball coaches - rather than poachers.

BackwardsBasketballSA,

Nearly everybody agree's with the sentiments above.

However, if you wan tot stay competitive you need to do what other clubs are doing.

West and Woodville have been recruiting from each other the past 10 years.

As have South and Southern.

Eastern have shown that over the last year or two they are willing to tell any country kid that they wont make State unles they move to Eastern.

So it's not just the bigger clubs that do it. It is ALL the clubs.

The big problem is enforcing any rules that are put in place. How do you prove a club has approached a player an not vice versa. And if you have a blanket rule like boundries, how do you organise a clearance for a kid that has a genuine reason to move?